Predestination (2)

[Philthy]

The idea is… If God knows all that is going to happen, before it happens… Then we can’t change what is going to happen, thus cancelling out “Free Will”…

This simply wrong. The existence of free will has nothing to do with the knowledge of anyone else. Somehow, because God is aware of what we freely choose to do, you come to the conclusion that we werent free in choosing it. That is foolish: free will has nothing to do with someone else knowing what our choice will be. Let me give you a thought experiment:
You are sitting in your living room when you are suddenly abducted by aliens.
The aliens bring you to their ship and reveal the future to you. Part of that revelation is that two days from the date of your abduction, the world poker championship will be won by a young man who bluffs with an ace high and defeats his opponent who has a pair of threes. The aliens return you to your home. Your share your experience with some co-workers, who report you to their supervisor who calls in the Human Resources rep who decides you need psychological counseling. You go off on a rant and land yourself in the psych ward, where you will remain for 72 hours. There you remain. While all this is going on, the World Championship of Poker is being played out. All the contestants are playing their hands and doing their best. They are all making choices, and their choices have causes and effects. When the final round comes about, a young man decides to go for broke with an ace high and ends up beating his opponent, who had a pair of threes, but who explained afterward that he simply thought the young man must have another ace.
Now, did the young man use the free exercise of his own will to choose to bluff? He most certainly did. Did the fact that you knew the outcome prior to its occurrence have any bearing on the event or his freedom in exercising his will? None whatsoever.
Free will has nothing to do with some one else knowing the future! What you are confusing is the fact that the event will actually occur with the exercise of free will bringing the act into existence. Likewise, God’s knowledge of our choices does not obviate our free will in choosing them - it merely means that we will use our free will to choose to do that which God knows. If we were not going to make that choice, God would not “know” that we were.

Blessings!

 

[brb3]

This simply wrong. The existence of free will has nothing to do with the knowledge of anyone else. Somehow, because God is aware of what we freely choose to do, you come to the conclusion that we werent free in choosing it. That is foolish: free will has nothing to do with someone else knowing what our choice will be. Let me give you a thought experiment:
You are sitting in your living room when you are suddenly abducted by aliens.
The aliens bring you to their ship and reveal the future to you. Part of that revelation is that two days from the date of your abduction, the world poker championship will be won by a young man who bluffs with an ace high and defeats his opponent who has a pair of threes. The aliens return you to your home. Your share your experience with some co-workers, who report you to their supervisor who calls in the Human Resources rep who decides you need psychological counseling. You go off on a rant and land yourself in the psych ward, where you will remain for 72 hours. There you remain. While all this is going on, the World Championship of Poker is being played out. All the contestants are playing their hands and doing their best. They are all making choices, and their choices have causes and effects. When the final round comes about, a young man decides to go for broke with an ace high and ends up beating his opponent, who had a pair of threes, but who explained afterward that he simply thought the young man must have another ace.
Now, did the young man use the free exercise of his own will to choose to bluff? He most certainly did. Did the fact that you knew the outcome prior to its occurrence have any bearing on the event or his freedom in exercising his will? None whatsoever.
Free will has nothing to do with some one else knowing the future! What you are confusing is the fact that the event will actually occur with the exercise of free will bringing the act into existence. Likewise, God’s knowledge of our choices does not obviate our free will in choosing them - it merely means that we will use our free will to choose to do that which God knows. If we were not going to make that choice, God would not “know” that we were.

Blessings!

Very good proof …

 

[Young_Thinker]

Go on the Internets or Internet machine (tongue in cheek) and look up Molonist or Thomist. These are the two views that are acceptable views as catholics. It feels very presumptuos of us to think we can understand anything from Gods point of view. We have scripture to teach us and the Early Church Fathers. The Ante-Nicene church fathers have many things to say regarding Free will and Predestination. Remember it is not “I understand so I can believe, it is rather I believe so I can understand”. Maybe instead of feeling doubt, which is what Satan wants you should see this as a challenge to more deeply enter in to the subject and see what is revealed to you. I agree with every point of view I have heard so far regarding the subject, and it is difficult to wrap your mind around an enigma. Just remember that you have free will and god doesn’t predestine anyone to hell. Salvation is a free gift and can be lost. If you decide that there is no free will, then you may decide to act (free will) sinful and lose your salvation. This is what is truly at stake here. You can freely sin or freely come to god, that is why we are concerned about final things. Continuing to doubt free will can lead you to the Dark Side of the Force, or maybe at least the Protestant side of the force. They also generally deny free will.

Thank you. I know that St. Augustine of Hippo favored predestination, yet apparently not to the level of Bishop Jensen(whom was reinterpretating one of Augustine’s statements).

 

[Thing]

I have been attending RCIA with the candidates and the elect. This past Tuesday (Mar 2) the topic of predestination came up and my :hypno: head has been swimming since…

Here is the concept… God knows all – Past, present and future.

He knew before he created the world that:
Adam and Eve would sin.
Mary would say yes.
Adolf Hitler would send thousands upon thousand Jews to the gas chamber.
JFK would be assassinated in 1963

Yet we have “Free Will” to make choices… But God knows the choices we will make before we make them… Seems like a paradox???

It would be like sitting down to a chess game and your opponent knows all your moves before you make them… Why play the game?

Or like Shakespeare said “All the worlds a stage”… Are we but actors acting out God’s script? And if we refuse to play the part, that refusal was written into the script anyway and we are still acting according to the script??

Was Judas a pawn in the crucifixion of Christ? He had no choice (even though he had Free Will) but to sell out Jesus and hang himself?? >> The script was written and he had to play out the part??

Lets say today – Baby boy is born and baby girl is born… In the year 2028 these two get together and sin… A baby is conceived and the girl makes the choice to have an abortion… Did God know these events would occur today (when boy and girl were born)… Lets know say the the boy chose not to sin with the girl… Did that surprise God? Or was the script really written that way from the beginning???

Help… :banghead: I don’t want to believe this is what predestination is, but it seems that’s the way it is… Even though we say we have “Free Will” we really don’t…

22 And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.

Where does this fit in?

 

[Cristian_B]

Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut on “Predestination” … Seems everyone has a different take on how it is possible for Predestination and Free Will to exist at the same time.

This subject has taxed my brain like no other… I am able to grasp most theological subjects with ease because I can see the power, grace and love of God in all the other subjects.

Predestination seems to take away from the dignity of the human… Sense God is about giving us dignity, why would He take it away with Predestination.

I have said this before, but none have picked up on this idea.

1. 
   *]Predestination is like sitting down to a chess game and your opponent knows all your moves before your make them… You can’t even change your mind because the moves have been predetermined (That is the definition of predestination?? or am I wrong)
   *]Free Will is the ability to make choices… Good choices, loving choices, bad choices, or evil choices.
   *]If our choices are predestine, how can there be Free Will…

1. 
   If someone knows something then that does not mean it is predestined. What if the opponent would tell you what you are going to do? Does that mean that you can’t do otherwise? Does that mean that since he told you what moves you’ll do you won’t be able to do other moves or change the moves he tells you you will do? Not the case.

 

[JVD]

Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut on “Predestination” … Seems everyone has a different take on how it is possible for Predestination and Free Will to exist at the same time.

This subject has taxed my brain like no other… I am able to grasp most theological subjects with ease because I can see the power, grace and love of God in all the other subjects.

Predestination seems to take away from the dignity of the human… Sense God is about giving us dignity, why would He take it away with Predestination.

I have said this before, but none have picked up on this idea.

1. 
   *]Predestination is like sitting down to a chess game and your opponent knows all your moves before your make them… You can’t even change your mind because the moves have been predetermined (That is the definition of predestination?? or am I wrong)
   *]Free Will is the ability to make choices… Good choices, loving choices, bad choices, or evil choices.
   *]If our choices are predestine, how can there be Free Will…

1. 
   In your chess game example. Put Satan in the chair as your opponent and God in the role of chess match judge to insure the rules are followed. That is a more accurate portrayal here. Now God knowing all things writes down on a piece of paper all the devils moves and your moves in advance. He knows what each will do before they have done it. That does not mean that God forces the devil to do one thing and you to do another - it just means that He knows exactly what will transpire. In fact God is looking at the moves and deciding if the devil is using moves that are too tempting to bait you into a check mate or is trying to cheat. God will not permit the devil to do that but He does want you to play your best and call on him for guidance. If anything the devil is at a disadvantage since in this kind of chess game you can ask the judge for guidance and help and God will give you any help you need to balance the contest since the devil is only a means to test your resolve and God wants you to beat him. The devil knows this and he will try to tempt you to not ask God for help and make you think God can’t help you and you must do it all yourself. Any help you ask for and get from God are of course also known to God in advance - and always work to benefit you - not work against you. It is up to you to call on God for help all your life knowing that He is there for you.
   
   So you see - your moves are known but God does not prevent you making them nor force you to make any move. You can’t lose if you call on God for help and follow His instruction faithfully or if you do move into trouble you again ask for help and correction and get back on the path to victory.
   
   James

 

[Bluegoat]

I think of this as a visual image. It’s not technically accurate in a physical sense, but I find it clear.
I picture the universe as kind of a big bubble. The bubble contains all of the created universe, from the beginning to the end.

God is nonphysical, outside of space and time. I imagine him as kind of a presence, unchanging, in the “space” that the bubble is sitting in.

At any time, God could look in the bubble and see everything that happened, at any of the times or places that existed inside the bubble. All of history is the present for God. He sees people making the choices with the freedom he gave them, but he didn’t cause their choices.

I think too it can be helpful to remember that the doctrine of free-will does not mean that we are completely free to choose anything. We can’t choose to disobey gravity, and if we are born with a weak heart we may never be a fire-fighter, and any number of other things that can contribute to the choices we make. So I think it is fair to say that the nature of the reality God creates contributes to the choices we make.

 

[Neo_Scotist]

I have been attending RCIA with the candidates and the elect. This past Tuesday (Mar 2) the topic of predestination came up and my :hypno: head has been swimming since…

Here is the concept… God knows all – Past, present and future.

He knew before he created the world that:
Adam and Eve would sin.
Mary would say yes.
Adolf Hitler would send thousands upon thousand Jews to the gas chamber.
JFK would be assassinated in 1963

Yet we have “Free Will” to make choices… But God knows the choices we will make before we make them… Seems like a paradox???

It would be like sitting down to a chess game and your opponent knows all your moves before you make them… Why play the game?

Or like Shakespeare said “All the worlds a stage”… Are we but actors acting out God’s script? And if we refuse to play the part, that refusal was written into the script anyway and we are still acting according to the script??

Was Judas a pawn in the crucifixion of Christ? He had no choice (even though he had Free Will) but to sell out Jesus and hang himself?? >> The script was written and he had to play out the part??

Lets say today – Baby boy is born and baby girl is born… In the year 2028 these two get together and sin… A baby is conceived and the girl makes the choice to have an abortion… Did God know these events would occur today (when boy and girl were born)… Lets know say the the boy chose not to sin with the girl… Did that surprise God? Or was the script really written that way from the beginning???

Help… :banghead: I don’t want to believe this is what predestination is, but it seems that’s the way it is… Even though we say we have “Free Will” we really don’t…

god’s “foreknowledge” of our actions is this:
Omniscience means knowing all possible things that can happen. It fails to follow, however, that omniscience is knowing what things will actually happen.

If god knew what we will actually do, that would be superfluous knowledge, knowing the same thing twice. It wouldn’t add anything new to his knowledge.

There’s no reason to suppose that god knows the same thing twice, use ockhams’ razor: God does not know what we will actually do because the future has yet materialize, but, he’s still omniscient because he knows all the things we can do.

Does that help?

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Hi

Imagine for a second this: You are driving down the road, you come to a curve, you have 2 choices - A) follow the road around the curve and go on your way B) drive off the road, into the ditch, and probably slam into that tree you see there. What is your choice? probably A. God already knew you were going to do that - and gave you encouragement to do so - because He loves you…had you prayed about it - He would have given you more encouragement to do so - because He loves you. Does that negate the fact that you have a choice? No…does that mean God willed you to do that? No. Does that change the fact that God knew you were going to do that? No. Therefore, it is not ‘scripted’ that you do that, because God did not will it to be so - he simply knew before you even knew you would have the choice, what you would choose.

Think for another second…we make thousands of choices every day. Some Big (I’m gonna marry that girl) some small (I’m going to go to that bathroom) Does God will each and every choice we make? No - he doesn’t need to - He already knows what choice we will make. Does that fact mean we still don’t have a choice to make? No - it doesn’t. You STILL have to make the choice to get up and go to the bathroom. You still have to choose to get married…God Just knows already you are going to do that, the outcome of that choice, and the subsequent choices you will have to make following that choice - as well as the choice/outcome of those choices, through to the end of time…for everyone.

Does that mean - to you, at that point in time - you do not still have a choice? No it doesn’t…you still have a choice TO YOU…God allows you the choice. The fact that he knows the outcome…does not change that fact one bit. Think about it - if our every move were ‘scripted’ - as such - there would be no choices we have to make. If we were still presented with choice - it is a false choice, because in reality - we have no choice. This makes God a deceiver…and that cannot be so. God can neither deceive nor be deceived. Therefore we have a valid choice. God just already knows the outcome.

As for the question regarding the foreshortening of days at the end of time -

God prefers, wants, desires - that all men be saved. HOWEVER He also knows, that isn’t going to happen. God would prefer that we last (for example) 10,000 years on this earth. However - He already knows that we will only last 9,000 years due to our sinful rebellious nature. The statement ‘or none would be saved’ answers your question, and illuminates my answer - God wants for all men to be saved…but knows, the reality of the situation is, NOT all men will choose that - He wants for there to be 10,000 years of time for us…however He also knows - due to us having free will, that our time will only be 9,000 years - because for Him to actively will the full 10,000 years would be counter-productive to His plan of salvation, and remove free will from us. Therefore - what God wants, is not going to happen. The fact that He already knows this - is proven by the fact that it is in Scripture. The fact that it is in Scripture does not negate the fact that we, as in the whole of humanity, did not/will not make the choices that get us to that exact situation in time.

Do not confuse my choice of words ‘God wants’ with God WILLS - two different things. God can intervene directly in a situation (heal the sick, raise the dead etc) and that is referred to as will - because it changes the reality of the situation…to us - God however, being God - already KNEW that situation was going to be there, and what the outcome of it would be. God would like, for example - all men to be saved…but does not will it to be so - to will it would remove free will…choice.

One last thing…surprise God? No. That is impossible…because if you were to try - He would, being God, know that already, and would know what you were going to do. Does that mean you don’t have the choice to try and surprise Him? No - it doesn’t…does that mean you will surprise Him? Again - No it doesn’t…if He didn’t already know you were going to do that, and know the outcome of that choice - He wouldn’t be God. Does that then mean you didn’t have a choice in the first place? think about it - do you? of course you do…you have it right now…the thing is - YOU don’t know the outcome of your choice…God however, does.

Peace

John