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Veritas6
Guest
I agree Calvinist double predestination is opposed to free will, but do you know what the Catholic understanding of predestination is? What is free will in your view?
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Veritas6
Guest
What is your definition of free will? You’re assuming determinism is true when most Catholics (Thomists especially) don’t even consider it. Can you prove determinism?
I know you need to eat in order to survive, but does me knowing this fact force you to eat only at 8pm tonight? Determinism is secondary here.
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Freddy
Guest
It’s unfortunate that there are two threads running on the same subject. I answered this in the other one.Freddy:
What is your definition of free will? You’re assuming determinism is true when most Catholics (Thomists especially) don’t even consider it. Can you prove determinism?
I know you need to eat in order to survive, but does me knowing this fact force you to eat only at 8pm tonight? Determinism is secondary here.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
I thought that for the Church it is rather clear that mankind was given free will to make their own choices for good or evil. Plus they can repent of their bad choices by means of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Now, if there are other details to be filled in regarding what G-d may know in advance, that’s fine for (religious) philosophers to discuss and debate; but for Catholics who live in the real world of their religion, all they need know is that they have the power to make their own decisions with the grace of G-d of course.
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Freddy
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I keep saying this, but the ability to make a choice is not necessarily a proof of free will. Free will would dictate that you could make different choices under exactly the same conditions.
If that is the case then under the same conditions nothing has happened to cause a change in the decision so whatever is chosen would always be chosen. Almost by definition.
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Aulef
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Predestination relates to free will in the sense that a human chooses which of the final destinations we could reach: Heaven or hell.
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Dan_Defender
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OP, try to put this issue in perspective. From God’s point of view, because He is all-knowing, yes predestination applies. The Lord knows his own. From our human point of view, though, we act out of free will, we do not know where we will end up until we reach the afterlife.
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Hume
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The ability to determine your own destiny.
On double predestination, the majority of Calvinists eschew it too. Gods sovereignty and our moral agency are simultaneous.
Duality is how they handle the contradiction.
On double predestination, the majority of Calvinists eschew it too. Gods sovereignty and our moral agency are simultaneous.
Duality is how they handle the contradiction.
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Veritas6
Guest
I think a good definition of free will (aside from the CCC) is: the ability to choose according to wisdom and to love what is truly good. Catholics don’t believe we can choose our own destiny, we are principally ordered towards the greatest good (i.e. God). God inclines us to the good, but we are not bound to choose one particular thing because we can see it as good and evil in various ways.
For example: I can choose to drive or fly from Chicago to New York, but I am not bound only to drive. It might be a good for me to fly to get there faster, but I might not have the money to fly, so I might not choose it (which would be a form of “evil” or absence of good in a loose sense). I can plan a road trip which might be a greater good instead of flying, and so forth.
The main idea is we only choose good in some form as we don’t choose things that would be bad for us, this is how we desire things. What is the greatest good for me in this situation that can best lead me to God?
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jochoa
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Rather than Wikipedia, use the list of Catholic Dogmas found here: http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2015/09/19/a-list-of-the-dogmas-of-the-catholic-church/
In particular Dogmas #96, 120 & 121
Only some.
Prior to physically creating, God is able to observe man’s free-willed choices.
Thank you and thanks be to God!
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Hume
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Then, as is typically the case, we diverge at the semantic level.
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TULIPed
Guest
This sounds exactly like something Morpheus would say. Especially the post part. I like it.
#taketheredpillNeo
#taketheredpillNeo
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TULIPed
Guest
And without God, where are we inclined towards?
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Freddy
Guest
Sounds like cognitive dissonance to me.
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Hume
Guest
Fundamentally why I left religion. Got tired of telling myself things that felt like lies in order to keep it all in the air.Hume:
Sounds like cognitive dissonance to me.
I still go to church since I promised my wife I would - I still believed when we married. But it’s just a time to socialize and quietly catch up on events with my phone.
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Freddy
Guest
I did go back to my old church a few years ago when I was in the UK. Took my daughter to show her where her old man spent so much time as a kid. Head choirboy doncha know!Freddy:
Fundamentally why I left religion. Got tired of telling myself things that felt like lies in order to keep it all in the air.Hume:
Sounds like cognitive dissonance to me.
I still go to church since I promised my wife I would - I still believed when we married. But it’s just a time to socialize and quietly catch up on events with my phone.
The sevice had just finished so I asked if I could have a look around. Nothing had changed. All exactly as I remembered it. And then someone came up and said ‘Hey, aren’t you Betty and Ray’s boy?’ Ye gods, it had been forty years at least since I’d been there and three or four people recognised me. Talked about the old times and then someone brought out the chalice that they still used that my late mother had donated to the church in memory of my father.
Very emotional moment. Must have got something in my eye I think…
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Veritas6
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As any good argument should be. As this is a Catholic forum that’s the standard understanding of Catholic predestination. What do you have difficulty with?Then, as is typically the case, we diverge at the semantic level.
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Veritas6
Guest
Do you mean as an atheist without God or God not existing? An atheist would still be inclined towards the good because that’s the only way we desire anything (“how can this choice benefit me?”).
Without God existing, existence wouldn’t exist
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TULIPed
Guest
I respectfully disagree. I think without God, our natural inclination is not good. From Romans 3:
“ 9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
Without God in our lives our natural inclination is - as St. Paul rightly says - not good. We might have free will - but it does us no good - at least as far as God’s concerned.
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Veritas6
Guest
In this sense without God we prefer lesser goods which are referred to as sin. We choose what we perceive as good, even if it is not truly good (to lead us to heaven). Without God, we desire evil but no one can desire evil in of itself.
In order to desire anything it needs to have some degree of goodness in it, otherwise we wouldn’t choose it. The finite goods in the world contain both good (from God) and evil, thus we aren’t bound to choose one way. We can always find benefits and faults in our choices.
For example, a very bad man might contemplate murder, but typically in order to benefit from it. His twisted mind might want an inheritance, perceived by him as a “good”, but without God he cannot choose what is truly good to get him to heaven.
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