Predestination and Free Will

  • Thread starter Thread starter Truthstalker
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted by tabcom
onenow1:Why is it that Paul says that Eve was decieved by the serpent? Why doesn’t he say that she made a choice? I respect your opinion. However, I stand by Paul.

Answer: Because he is just relating a story out of Genesis.

The important thing to remember, God gave them a directive;we are tempted everday sometimes we fail and sometimes we conquer.

Example: Sometimes we use little lies to appease someone for some reason or other, for the moment, we realize its wrong yet we do it. That is choice free will, or if you wish stupidity.
 
If I understand you correctly, free-will is man’s ability to disobey God. Is this correct?
It means our moral human acts are voluntary. Thus, freewill as it pertains to moral human acts pertains to the natural faculty to either obey or disobey God in any single moral human act.
 
In order for me to understand what you mean by ‘God-given nature’, would I be correct in rephrasing the question ’ Is man through his five senses capable of voluntarily obeying or voluntarily disobeying God in a single moral act?'
I don’t know what you mean by limiting it to five senses. My will and intellect are involved in my moral human choices, which are not among the five senses. The will is a faculty of the soul, not a faculty of sense-perception.
 
Catholic Dude:
What I mean by God causing sin is that it was His intention to do evil and He carried out that intention. Catholics believe such a notion is false, in fact such a charge against God is unthinkable…
I agree with you. I’m sorry that my initial response was unclear.
:confused: YOU AGREE with me???..then you HAVE to accept free will because that is the only way to not make God responsible for sin. You originally said God sent the snake, now your saying that cant be true…thus Adam FREELY ate in disobedience to God command to Adam.
 
I don’t want to butt into the conversation, but since this thread seems fairly active, I thought I would put my own question here. My understanding of the Catholic teaching on predestination is that God predestines people to Heaven, but He does not predestine people to Hell. However, unless one is predestined to Heaven, one will certainly go to Hell. If this is so, how are the Hell-bound not in some way predestined? Since God has deliberately chosen not to predestine them to Heaven, has He not then deliberately damned them?

I am coming from a strongly Arminian Protestant background, and I always believed that all of us have free will and that God desires the salvation of all. However, some people use their free will to reject salvation. God, being omniscient, has full knowledge of this before it happens, though He does not make it so.

The Calvinist position has disturbed me greatly since I became aware of it, but it appears to me that the Catholic position is rather similiar. Any clarification on this issue would be much appreciated. Thanks! 🙂

God bless!
 
Since God has deliberately chosen not to predestine them to Heaven, has He not then deliberately damned them?
The Catholic tradition is a lot more nuanced than a simple answer can explain, and there are a number of different possible answers. Being predestined to Heaven doesn’t mean that God saves some, and does nothing for others, but rather that those who are carried to Heaven are carried by Grace, by the Will of God, and those who sin are abandoned by Grace due to their sins, due to their abandoning of Grace.

Here’s my thought on the matter, based on the Councils and on Aquinas.

That people are certainly known to be Damned doesn’t mean that God doesn’t give the opportunity for salvation to the Damned, it just means that being omniscient He knows their destiny before hand, and Wills to allow them to ultimately fall away according to their free will (the free will which God provided them). The predestined, on the other hand, can only be carried to Heaven by Grace, not by their own natural merits, so God supplies Grace for the predestined in order that they may be in Heaven with Him (obviously they work with this Grace too, but that is another issue); God knows they will be in Heaven by His omniscient foreknowledge, and provides the means, namely Grace.

This is why, for example, the Catholic Church can say definatively that Baptism imparts real Grace, but that those who have been Baptised can go to Hell. God gives the same Grace to both types of Baptised (the ultimately Saved and the ultimately Damned), but those who fall away from Grace gain nothing from it in the end. So the negative reprobation of Hell is less that God doesn’t do something for them (except in the sense that He doesn’t bring them to Heaven), and more that He permits them to be lost by their sins.

So let’s imagine that I have a bowl of different colored marbles, and I somehow know that only blue and red ones will remain in my hand, though there are many other colors (let’s say those other colors also happen to bounce around, like mexican jumping beans), and I wish to carry the blue and red marbles away. I reach into the bowl and lift them all up, and as I raise my hand every marble that isn’t blue or red falls away one by one, and I now have all of the blue and red marbles just as I had planned.

I knew beforehand that only blue and reds would come with me, and I put my hands in to grab those blue and red marbles (omniscience and predestination), but I didn’t forsake the other marbles, rather they fell away from me on their own (negative reprobation). I allowed them to fall away, but it’s a different situation than if I simply went through the bowl and only picked out the red and blue ones, passing over the other colors. The red and blue are carried up by predestination, and the others are lost by reprobation, but the red and blue can be said to be lifted up only because I lifted them, not because they could compel my hands (and not because they could come up by any means other than my hands), and the others can be said to be lost only because they fell away, though it’s true that I could have theoretically forced them, against their inclination, to remain in my hands (and God could destroy the free will of those who are Damned, too, but that would be to destroy them in the process).

So it’s an incredibly subtle and nuanced issue, but hopefully this helps clear things up.

Peace and God bless!
 
I don’t want to butt into the conversation, but since this thread seems fairly active, I thought I would put my own question here. My understanding of the Catholic teaching on predestination is that God predestines people to Heaven, but He does not predestine people to Hell. However, unless one is predestined to Heaven, one will certainly go to Hell. If this is so, how are the Hell-bound not in some way predestined? Since God has deliberately chosen not to predestine them to Heaven, has He not then deliberately damned them?

I am coming from a strongly Arminian Protestant background, and I always believed that all of us have free will and that God desires the salvation of all. However, some people use their free will to reject salvation. God, being omniscient, has full knowledge of this before it happens, though He does not make it so.

The Calvinist position has disturbed me greatly since I became aware of it, but it appears to me that the Catholic position is rather similiar. Any clarification on this issue would be much appreciated. Thanks! 🙂

God bless!
Here is a good article on that. Welcome to the thread.

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
 
I have read A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP twice. I agree with its author (a Catholic) that the Calvinist doctrine of TULIP is false.
**What I have been attempting to do within this thread, with various results, is to show that our 21st century opinion of what free-will is, has no value as an aid in studying Scripture.**Yes.
Why do you believe TULIP is false? How are your beliefs different from TULIP? And what is the role of man’s will in salvation?

God Bless,
Michael
 
Being predestined to Heaven doesn’t mean that God saves some, and does nothing for others, but rather that those who are carried to Heaven are carried by Grace, by the Will of God, and those who sin are abandoned by Grace due to their sins, due to their abandoning of Grace.
What troubles me is the apparent belief that unless one is specifically predestined to Heaven, sin and the subsequent abandonment by grace is inevitable.
That people are certainly known to be Damned doesn’t mean that God doesn’t give the opportunity for salvation to the Damned, it just means that being omniscient He knows their destiny before hand, and Wills to allow them to ultimately fall away according to their free will (the free will which God provided them).
So far so good, from my admittedly biased perspective… 🙂
The predestined, on the other hand, can only be carried to Heaven by Grace, not by their own natural merits, so God supplies Grace for the predestined in order that they may be in Heaven with Him (obviously they work with this Grace too, but that is another issue); God knows they will be in Heaven by His omniscient foreknowledge, and provides the means, namely Grace.
This part is difficult for me, and I suppose it has troubled theologians for centuries. God knows who will be in Heaven, and therefore provides them with His Grace. However, the very reason they are bound for Heaven is because of His Grace. Therefore, it seems to be a sort of self-fulfilling foreknowledge on God’s part. On its own, this would not be so troubling, if not for those poor souls who are not given Grace.

The marble explanation explains things fairly well, I believe, though I’m still a bit confused, I must admit. Thank you, though! 🙂
Here is a good article on that. Welcome to the thread.

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
Thanks for the article. Actually, it was this very article that led to my questions in my previous post. The point of the article seems to be that a Calvinist can become Catholic without really rejecting predestination. While the intent may be to reach out to Calvinists, the article has the potential to frighten the “free will” crowd. Someone who rejects Calvinism, due to the belief that Calvinism makes God appear rather cruel, is going to be leery of any positive comparison between Calvinism and Catholicism. I guess this describes my position.
 
This part is difficult for me, and I suppose it has troubled theologians for centuries. God knows who will be in Heaven, and therefore provides them with His Grace. However, the very reason they are bound for Heaven is because of His Grace. Therefore, it seems to be a sort of self-fulfilling foreknowledge on God’s part. On its own, this would not be so troubling, if not for those poor souls who are not given Grace.
Grace is what gets us to Heaven, certainly, but that doesn’t mean that those who don’t make it to Heaven weren’t given Grace. Analogically, a car gets you from one town to another, but just because someone doesn’t make it to the second town doesn’t mean they weren’t in the car; they could have gotten out early.

As for why God knows infallibly who will be in Heaven, that is because of His omniscience, not because He doesn’t necessarily provide Grace for all. Those who are pre-known to be Damned will certainly be abandoned by Grace, but by virtue of their own sins and not because God simply didn’t provide them any Grace. Just as you are abandoned by Grace when you sin mortally, not merely because God stopped providing it to you, but because you turned against it by sin. Aquinas expresses it like this:
Reprobation differs in its causality from predestination. This latter is the cause both of what is expected in the future life by the predestined–namely, glory–and of what is received in this life–namely, grace. Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present–namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future–namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and deserted by grace. In this way, the word of the prophet is true–namely, “Destruction is thy own, O Israel.”
God’s reprobation is not the cause of sin, we are. God’s knowledge of who will be Damned is infallible, but the reason that such a person is Damned is by their sin. In other words, the Damned aren’t Damned because God knew they’d be damned, God knew they’d be Damned because He foresaw their sin and abandonment. The Saved are more reliant on Grace for their state, even though their freedom of choice is equal to that of the Damned; the difference is that they require the added help of Grace to reach their destination, whereas the Damned require nothing beyond their own power.

It should be noted that Jimmy Akin’s article reflects the “hard Thomist” position, not the position of St. Thomas Aquinas, and not one that is generally accepted in the Church today even by Thomists (though it’s not heretical).

Peace and God bless!
 
I present the following passage to those who believe God’s plan of salvation (predestination) does not incorporate free will:

Revelation 2:20-22

**20’But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

21’I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

22’Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. **

How can God give her time to repent without granting her the possibility to respond to His call to repentance? Wouldn’t that be a waste of time? It’s like asking someone to drive a car knowing there is no gasoline in the tank. Secondly, it states that she does not want to repent. Since when has “not wanting” have to do with repenting? God’s grace is irresistable, according to Calvinism.

God Bless,
Michael
 
I present the following passage to those who believe God’s plan of salvation (predestination) does not incorporate free will:

Revelation 2:20-22

**20’But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

21’I gave her time to repent**, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

22’Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

How can God give her time to repent without granting her the possibility to respond to His call to repentance? Wouldn’t that be a waste of time? It’s like asking someone to drive a car knowing there is no gasoline in the tank. Secondly, it states that she does not want to repent. Since when has “not wanting” have to do with repenting? God’s grace is irresistable, according to Calvinism.

God Bless,
Michael
Responses?
:coffeeread:

God Bless,
Michael
 
Responses?
:coffeeread:

God Bless,
Michael
You misunderstand Calvinism on at least one key point. Grace is irresistible in the sense that it moves the will. Those whom God has chosen will repent; those whom God has not chosen will not. This is standard Augustine, though it’s true that the Calvinist version is cruder.

Edwin
 
I think I have found a passage of the Word of God that is very much relevant to this discussion.

I was reading my Bible tonight (Oh NO! A Catholic who reads the Bible! Alert the media! 😛 😃 ) and found this.

Sirach 15:11: Do not say, “Because of the Lord I left the right way”; for he will not do what he hates.
12: Do not say, “It was he who led me astray”; for he had no need of a sinful man.
13: The Lord hates all abominations, and they are not loved by those who fear him.
14: It was he who created man in the beginning, and he left him in the power of his own inclination.
15: If you will, you can keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
16: He has placed before you fire and water: stretch out your hand for whichever you wish.
17: Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him.
18: For great is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power and sees everything;
19: his eyes are on those who fear him, and he knows every deed of man.
20: He has not commanded any one to be ungodly, and he has not given any one permission to sin.
 
I think I have found a passage of the Word of God that is very much relevant to this discussion.

I was reading my Bible tonight (Oh NO! A Catholic who reads the Bible! Alert the media! 😛 😃 ) and found this.

Sirach 15:11: Do not say, “Because of the Lord I left the right way”; for he will not do what he hates.
12: Do not say, “It was he who led me astray”; for he had no need of a sinful man.
13: The Lord hates all abominations, and they are not loved by those who fear him.
14: It was he who created man in the beginning, and he left him in the power of his own inclination.
15: If you will, you can keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
16: He has placed before you fire and water: stretch out your hand for whichever you wish.
17: Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him.
18: For great is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power and sees everything;
19: his eyes are on those who fear him, and he knows every deed of man.
20: He has not commanded any one to be ungodly, and he has not given any one permission to sin.
Hi CM. Good post! Of course, our Protestant brethren will simply say that the book you quoted from isn’t in *their *Bible, and ignore it.
 
What troubles me is the apparent belief that unless one is specifically predestined to Heaven, sin and the subsequent abandonment by grace is inevitable.

So far so good, from my admittedly biased perspective… 🙂

This part is difficult for me, and I suppose it has troubled theologians for centuries. God knows who will be in Heaven, and therefore provides them with His Grace. However, the very reason they are bound for Heaven is because of His Grace. Therefore, it seems to be a sort of self-fulfilling foreknowledge on God’s part. On its own, this would not be so troubling, if not for those poor souls who are not given Grace.

The marble explanation explains things fairly well, I believe, though I’m still a bit confused, I must admit. Thank you, though! 🙂

Thanks for the article. Actually, it was this very article that led to my questions in my previous post. The point of the article seems to be that a Calvinist can become Catholic without really rejecting predestination. While the intent may be to reach out to Calvinists, the article has the potential to frighten the “free will” crowd. Someone who rejects Calvinism, due to the belief that Calvinism makes God appear rather cruel, is going to be leery of any positive comparison between Calvinism and Catholicism. I guess this describes my position.
The outpouring of grace is available for all. Some choose not to stand under the spout where the glory comes out. 😃
 
Arminian Protestants would have no problem with it.

I’d like to hear hard core Thomists explain verse 15. The Molinists would have no problem with it. How would the hard core Thomists explain it?
 
Arminian Protestants would have no problem with it.

I’d like to hear hard core Thomists explain verse 15. The Molinists would have no problem with it. How would the hard core Thomists explain it?
They would simply say that this refers to the will moved and empowered by Grace, not the will without it. Incidently, this would be the same position as the Molinists; both sides agree that the will can only accept Grace if moved by God to do so; anything else would be Pelagianism.

God bless!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top