Predestination and the Eastern Church

[FCCopleston]

I have a few questions for those who belong to Eastern Catholic Church.

1) What is your view on predestination? (I understand that you reject all forms of predestination).

**2) **In light of the Church’s Scripture and Tradition, how do you support your position? (I do not mean this in a smug way; I genuinely would like to know your basic reasons for denying predestination–in any sense of the word).

3) Can one be a member of the Eastern Church in good standing if they believe that their faith is a gift of God and that they are one of God’s elect children who will persevere by the Holy Spirit to the end?

Thank you for your replies,
JCCopleston

 

[ciero]

I have a few questions for those who belong to Eastern Catholic Church.

1) What is your view on predestination? (I understand that you reject all forms of predestination).

**2) **In light of the Church’s Scripture and Tradition, how do you support your position? (I do not mean this in a smug way; I genuinely would like to know your basic reasons for denying predestination–in any sense of the word).

3) Can one be a member of the Eastern Church in good standing if they believe that their faith is a gift of God and that they are one of God’s elect children who will persevere by the Holy Spirit to the end?

Thank you for your replies,
JCCopleston

NO you can not be a Calvinist and an Eastern Christian at the same time .

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

NO you can not be a Calvinist and an Eastern Christian at the same time .

Awesome.

 

[FCCopleston]

NO you can not be a Calvinist and an Eastern Christian at the same time .

Judging by your reply, I will assume that you do not know what predestination is outside of its use in Calvinist circles.

Predestination, according to the Roman Church, has two forms. First, there is Thomism (which I believe is the more faithful to Sacred Scripture), which asserts that the faithful of God (the elect) have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ante proevisa merita (before any merit of our own, or apart from so-called “foreseen merit”). Second, there is Molinism, which asserts that the faithful of God have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world *post proevisa merita *(after having foreseen our choosing Him).

Ignorant Thomists accuse the Molinists of Pelgianism. Ignorant Molinists accuse Thomists of Calvinism. Both accusations of the other are wrong (though I think that it is far more difficult to square the Molinist position with Sacred Scripture than the Thomistic one).

That being said, I understood that the Eastern Church held to a view more akin with Molinism, and I was wondering, seeing that the Eastern Church prides herself on allowing such mysteries to be matters where she does not impose firm doctrinal boundaries or dogmas, is it possible for one to hold to a Thomistic view of predestination and be a member of good standing in the Eastern Orthodox Church? Or, more precise, is the Thomistic view of predestination a heretical view in light of Eastern Orthodox tradition?

In Christ,
FCCopleston

 

[Alexander_Roman]

It is just that both of these views are outside our Patristic tradition and don’t enter into it.

The Orthodox Church has used Thomism for her moral theology and there were Orthodox who loved Aquinas, even to the point of calling him “Blessed Thomas” (Patriarch Gennadios Scholarios and others mentioned by Fr. John Meyendorff in his work on Byzantine Theology).

But the East has focused on Theosis which is open to all.

Alex

 

[FCCopleston]

It is just that both of these views are outside our Patristic tradition and don’t enter into it.

The Orthodox Church has used Thomism for her moral theology and there were Orthodox who loved Aquinas, even to the point of calling him “Blessed Thomas” (Patriarch Gennadios Scholarios and others mentioned by Fr. John Meyendorff in his work on Byzantine Theology).

But the East has focused on Theosis which is open to all.

Alex

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Alex.

Perhaps, in light of the fact that neither Thomism nor Molinism lies beyond your Patristic tradition, I had better re-form my question.

How does an Eastern Catholic interpret the following passage of Sacred Scripture:
EPHESIANS 1:1-14
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, to all the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus. 2 Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ: 4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. 5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: 6 Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8 Which hath superabounded in us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 That he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in him, 10 In the dispensation of the fulness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him. 11 In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will. 12 That we may be unto the praise of his glory, we who before hoped Christ: 13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, 14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory.

EPHESIANS 2:1-10
1 And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins, 2 Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief: 3 In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: 4 But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) 6 And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. 7 That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which **God hath prepared **that we should walk in them.

I think it is rather clear that these passages speak of salvation as being of Christ alone; and that our salvation rests in God’s eternal will to save us in Christ. Even our good works are prepared beforehand by God.

However, this is not to be set in opposition to free will. Both realities are equally true: we receive Christ by our own free will, without coercion, and we are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

I am interested to hear what Eastern Orthodox exegesis.

In Christ,
FCCopleston

 

[KathleenElsie]

NO you can not be a Calvinist and an Eastern Christian at the same time .

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Alex.

Perhaps, in light of the fact that neither Thomism nor Molinism lies beyond your Patristic tradition, I had better re-form my question.

How does an Eastern Catholic interpret the following passage of Sacred Scripture:
EPHESIANS 1:1-14
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, to all the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus. 2 Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ: 4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. 5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: 6 Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8 Which hath superabounded in us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 That he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in him, 10 In the dispensation of the fulness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him. 11 In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will. 12 That we may be unto the praise of his glory, we who before hoped Christ: 13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, 14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory.

EPHESIANS 2:1-10
1 And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins, 2 Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief: 3 In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: 4 But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) 6 And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. 7 That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which **God hath prepared **that we should walk in them.

I think it is rather clear that these passages speak of salvation as being of Christ alone; and that our salvation rests in God’s eternal will to save us in Christ. Even our good works are prepared beforehand by God.

However, this is not to be set in opposition to free will. Both realities are equally true: we receive Christ by our own free will, without coercion, and we are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

I am interested to hear what Eastern Orthodox exegesis.

In Christ,
FCCopleston

Certainly, God has predestined us to salvation in His Christ, our Lord, God and Saviour. And we can reject that salvation/sanctification. God’s Grace, which in the East is the Holy Spirit Himself, empowers our will to accept His Gift (by which His Gift becomes our merit) or reject Him (by which act we refuse to become what we were meant by God to become).

God always knew He would create us so we’ve always existed as a thought of God’s.and we are an expression of one of God’s thoughts.

But God values our ability to respond to Him with our free will and love. Thus, He empowers us with His Grace to make a choice and to follow through with it. Once we have accepted God’s invitation to salvation/Theosis, our will continues to accept His Grace and to grow in it - even after death in a dynamic manner.

Nothing occurs without God’s Will and Grace and this includes our capacity to perform the works He expects of us and has ordained us by means of His Sacraments/Mysteries to perform as His Priests, Prophets and Kings. His benevolence has deigned that our choice for Him, which is only made possible by the Grace of Christ, becomes our merit for all eternity.

He has truly predestined us from all eternity for glory in Christ through the Holy Spirit.

Alex

 

[FCCopleston]

Certainly, God has predestined us to salvation in His Christ, our Lord, God and Saviour. And we can reject that salvation/sanctification. God’s Grace, which in the East is the Holy Spirit Himself, empowers our will to accept His Gift (by which His Gift becomes our merit) or reject Him (by which act we refuse to become what we were meant by God to become).

God always knew He would create us so we’ve always existed as a thought of God’s.and we are an expression of one of God’s thoughts.

But God values our ability to respond to Him with our free will and love. Thus, He empowers us with His Grace to make a choice and to follow through with it. Once we have accepted God’s invitation to salvation/Theosis, our will continues to accept His Grace and to grow in it - even after death in a dynamic manner.

Nothing occurs without God’s Will and Grace and this includes our capacity to perform the works He expects of us and has ordained us by means of His Sacraments/Mysteries to perform as His Priests, Prophets and Kings. His benevolence has deigned that our choice for Him, which is only made possible by the Grace of Christ, becomes our merit for all eternity.

He has truly predestined us from all eternity for glory in Christ through the Holy Spirit.

Alex

Thank you for your explanation on this, Alex.

This seems to me a faithful exegesis of the text, which allows for both man’s freedom and God’s sovereignty to exist in union, while also permitting the mystery and paradox to exist without delving into the particularities of precisely how each side of this relationship bears itself out.

In Christ,
FCCopleston

 

[Madaglan]

Judging by your reply, I will assume that you do not know what predestination is outside of its use in Calvinist circles.

Predestination, according to the Roman Church, has two forms. First, there is Thomism (which I believe is the more faithful to Sacred Scripture), which asserts that the faithful of God (the elect) have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ante proevisa merita (before any merit of our own, or apart from so-called “foreseen merit”). Second, there is Molinism, which asserts that the faithful of God have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world *post proevisa merita *(after having foreseen our choosing Him).

Ignorant Thomists accuse the Molinists of Pelgianism. Ignorant Molinists accuse Thomists of Calvinism. Both accusations of the other are wrong (though I think that it is far more difficult to square the Molinist position with Sacred Scripture than the Thomistic one).

That being said, I understood that the Eastern Church held to a view more akin with Molinism, and I was wondering, seeing that the Eastern Church prides herself on allowing such mysteries to be matters where she does not impose firm doctrinal boundaries or dogmas, is it possible for one to hold to a Thomistic view of predestination and be a member of good standing in the Eastern Orthodox Church? Or, more precise, is the Thomistic view of predestination a heretical view in light of Eastern Orthodox tradition?

In Christ,
FCCopleston

The question of predestination predates the battles of the Reformation. Blessed Augustine and his advocatae, Prosper of Aquitaine, were criticized by other orthodox Christians of their time. St. John Cassian and St. Vincent of Lerins, for example, criticized Augustine on his particular beliefs concerning grace and free will, yet did not go so far as to call him a heretic. Insofar that the Thomistic view is similar to that of Blessed Augustine, I think a Thomist Orthodox could be in good standing with the Orthodox Church, but would need to correct his views, lest he further go astray and become a Thomist Catholic.

Personally, I think salvation is less in the all-knowing, foreseeing mind of God than in our cooperation with God’s grace in the here and now. Our individual salvation is not pre-determined. We know that God desires all men to be saved, and it’s the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church, or at least as taught by my priest, that God does not create men to damn them. Even Judas could have repented had he desired.

If you have not read it already, Fr. Seraphim Rose’s book, The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church, is a great read that addresses your questions.

 

[FCCopleston]

Personally, I think salvation is less in the all-knowing, foreseeing mind of God than in our cooperation with God’s grace in the here and now. Our individual salvation is not pre-determined. We know that God desires all men to be saved, and it’s the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church, or at least as taught by my priest, that God does not create men to damn them. Even Judas could have repented had he desired.

If you have not read it already, Fr. Seraphim Rose’s book, The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church, is a great read that addresses your questions.

I quite agree with you, Madaglan.

When I think of predestination, I do not have in mind the secret and hidden will and purpose of God–God in His hiddenness is terrifying!

Rather, when I think of predestination I am simply comforted in knowing that, if I have faith in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, and if my faith is a living faith of love for God and neighbor, then I can trust with certitude that God has saved me, is saving me, and will save me on the Last Day, according to His own purpose, by, in, and through Christ.

I would never deny human free will. However, I would never deny God’s sovereign election either (to salvation, not damnation). The fact that I cannot find a way to make these logically compatible does not trouble me, because Life is larger than logic.

Thank you for the book suggestion, by the way. I will definitely look into it.

In Christ,
FCCopleston