predestination: believe it or against it?

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TOmNossor:
I guess I assume too much. Perhaps you do not know that I am a LDS. I believe that I worship the same God that you worship, but most non-LDS Christians are quite willing to tell me that I do not.

Charity, TOm
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Tom,

I assumed you were Catholic. Sorry about that.

In peace,

Mel
 
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TOmNossor:
I guess I assume too much. Perhaps you do not know that I am a LDS. I believe that I worship the same God that you worship, but most non-LDS Christians are quite willing to tell me that I do not.

Charity, TOm
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Well Tom that is not just reserved for LDS folks, I am often reminded that I am a “Child of Satan” ™, that I worship the Devil, that I am a reprobate whblankr, and my personal favorite a spiritual abortion. I always thought I worshipped Jesus as Lord. I know it should not bother me when fellow believers say this but it does.
 
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Melchior:
I have to point out to all you Catholics who have said you don’t believe in Predestination - you are denying De Fide doctrine of the Catholic Church. Not believing in Predestination is not an option for you. Mel
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Can you please show me where this is exactly mentioned?
 
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Aris:
Can you please show me where this is exactly mentioned?
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One more extended quote from Ott on the various theories of predestination one can accept if Catholic:

*"The Thomists, the Augustinians, the majority of the Scotists and also individual older Molinists (Suarez, St. Bellarmine) teach an absolute Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), therefore ante praevisa merita. According to them, God freely resolves from all Eternity, without consideration of the merits of man’s grace, to call certain men to beatification and therefore to bestow on them graces which will infallibly secure the execution of the Divine Decree (ordo intentionis). In time God first gives to the predestined effective graces and then eternal bliss as a reward for the merits which flow from their free cooperation with grace (ordo executionis). The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis are in inverse relation to each other (glory-grace; grace-glory).

Most of the Molinists, and also St. Francis de Sales (+1622), teach a conditioned Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), that is, postand propter praevisa merita. According to them, God by His scientia media, sees beforehand how men would freely react to various orders of grace. In the light of this knowledge He chooses, according to His free pleasure a fixed and definite order of grace. Now by His scientia visionis, He knows infallibly in advance what use the individual man will make of the grace bestowed on him. He elects for eternal bliss those who by virtue of their foreseen merits perseveringly cooperate with grace, while He determines for eternal punishment of hell, those who, on account of their foreseen demerits, deny their cooperation. The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis coincide (grace-glory; grace-glory).

Both attempts at explanation are ecclesiastically permissible. The scriptural proofs are not decisive for either side. The Thomists quote above all passages from the Letter to the Romans, in which the Divine factor in salvation is brought strongly to the foreground (Rom 8:29; 9:11-13, 9:20 et seq.) . . . The Molinists invoke the passages which attest the universality of the Divine desire for salvation, especially 1 Tim 2:4, as well as the sentence to be pronounced by the Judge of the World (Mt 25:34-36), in which the works of mercy are given as ground for the acceptance into the Heavenly Kingdom. But that these are also the basis for the ‘preparation’ for the Kingdom, that is, for the eternal resolve of Predestination, cannot be definitely proved from them . . ."*
Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

ken
 
Anyone ever hear of a radio station called “Family Radio?” the President of that station is Harold Camping. He even goes to say that God hates some and loves others. That for some, there is no hope, they will go to hell. He also judges people. I’ve talked to him myself before over the phone.

Now that station is telling people that God is commanding everyone to leave the church, that the end of the church age has come and for anyone who does not, they will go to hell. Oh boy, talk about a heretict.
 
I believe EVERYTHING the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church proposes for my belief, including predestination as defined by the Church, and not by John Calvin. (See Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Dr. Ludwig Ott, pp. 239, 242-44)

JMJ Jay
 
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