Predestination/Calvinism

[benidict]

I do not believe God has to save anyone adult or child. God is able to save whomever He chooses. It is according to His sovereign purposes that anyone is saved. I do not know if there are elect or unelect children. We are all conceived with original sin so I would then suppose there are children in hell because it was Adam’s choice to sin. Look at David’s sin with Bathsheba it caused the death of his new born son. Sin certainly reaches further than we can even imagine.

wow! i rest my case. the Calvinist apparently have a god “small g” that would send babies to hell. (at least in your view.) this is not the God of the bible. this Would be a false gospel. if calvinist really feel this way, then i would have to think that jesuitboy got it right, in comparing what the calvinist believe and what the priest of moloch believed. that my friend, is scary. i could not worship such a being. by the way. david said, “he could not come to me, so i will go to him.” which means he believed his child was somewhere he could meet him later. i dont think david thought his child was in hell. Peace and prayer for you. the further i dig into some of these protestant lines of thought, the more it seems, ancient heresies are found in them. thank God for His Church.

 

[pablope]

Yes I am up for it.
But here’s the thing. They must refute my argument. You should be able to show me why my argument is flawed. So please if you are going to ask someone, tell them the argument the way I posed it.

You can give them a link to my posts so that they know where I am cming from.

**

PS. Should the thread close in the meantime, can you start a new thread with the reply and pm me the link? Thanks.
**

For info, there was a debate between James White and Dr. Robert (?) Sungenis on Predestination and Free will in September 2010. Heard about it, it may be on You tube. On another thread, somebody posted a link to Dr. Sungenis post debate response to James White’s radio comments on the debate.

I am pasting a part of the response here, which I found most in line with what is discussed here:

During the debate I pointed out that Dr. White’s view pictures a God that
arbitrarily selects people to save and damn, and that I find it rather amusing that the criteria God supposedly uses to do this choosing is nothing more than to show his glory by saving the predestined and show his justice by choosing not to save the rest, both decisions made without any free will of those who are chosen. God simply makes the choice and man has nothing whatsoever to do with it, except do what God has programmed him to do. So I asked Dr. White why it would be necessary for God to display his glory and justice, especially if he does so by choosing to save some and choosing to damn the rest without giving them any free will to accept or reject him. Doesn’t God already know he is glorious and just? Why does he have to create people without free will to demonstrate these
qualities?

Here is the link to the whole reply: catholicintl.com/articles/Response%20to%20James%20White%20on%20Assumption%20of%20Mary%20Debate.pdf

I will try to look for the debate MP3 and post it.

 

[benedictus2]

We are all created sinners and deserve hell. WE did not ask to be created that way. Not everyone has the same chance for salvation. Is that fair they will be in hell because they did not have the same oppourtunity?

We are all created sinners?

So if God created us sinners, then we are sinners not because of our own fault but because God made us sinners.** If that is so, then you are in effect saying that God is unjust because He is sending us to hell for being something which is not our own fault.

**Your statement says that murderers are not murderers by their own fault but because God made them murderers. And that applies to every single sin.

 

[benedictus2]

Being a child was never a guarantee of heaven. Our sin nature begins at conception.

Is there a difference between having a sinful nature and being a sinner?

 

[benedictus2]

**Merry Christmas to Everyone on this thread.
**
Let All Mortal Flesh keep Silence

Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
and with fear and trembling stand;
ponder nothing earthly-minded,
for with blessing in his hand,
Christ our God to earth descendeth,
our full homage to demand.

King of kings, yet born of Mary,
as of old on earth he stood,
Lord of lords, in human vesture,
in the body and the blood;
he will give to all the faithful
his own self for heavenly food.

Rank on rank the host of heaven
spreads its vanguard on the way,
as the Light of light descendeth
from the realms of endless day,
that the powers of hell may vanish
as the darkness clears away.

At his feet the six-winged seraph,
cherubim, with sleepless eye,
veil their faces to the presence,
as with ceaseless voice they cry:
Alleluia, Alleluia,
Alleluia, Lord Most High!

youtube.com/watch?v=ka_8M…eature=related

 

[benedictus2]

For info, there was a debate between James White and Dr. Robert (?) Sungenis on Predestination and Free will in September 2010. Heard about it, it may be on You tube. On another thread, somebody posted a link to Dr. Sungenis post debate response to James White’s radio comments on the debate.

I am pasting a part of the response here, which I found most in line with what is discussed here:

Here is the link to the whole reply: catholicintl.com/articles/Response%20to%20James%20White%20on%20Assumption%20of%20Mary%20Debate.pdf

I will try to look for the debate MP3 and post it.

Hi Pablo,

Thanks for that.

I think the one thing that most Calvinists fail to account for is the fact that God created all of us.

They always start with the proposition that we have a sin nature and that’s that.

But if God hates sin and sin is punishable by hell, one wonders why he would continue on making people who it seems have no other option but to sin.

Another thing that they have probably not thought out is that it makes prayer meaningless.

If we are all destined for either heaven or hell from the beginning, then what is the point of praying?

 

[benedictus2]

Inside Calvinism, why does God predestine people to hell? Does the God of the Calvinists have an arbitrary rule that not everybody can be saved so therefore some have to be damned?

Perhaps eenie meenie miny mo?

 

[benidict]

Perhaps eenie meenie miny mo?

yes it really does come down to this. lol! Merry Christmas benedictus!

 

[benedictus2]

yes it really does come down to this. lol! Merry Christmas benedictus!

Hey, Merry Christmas to you and everyone in your troop.

As we commemorate the birth of the Prince of Peace, May peace reign in all hearts that wars may cease and that you may come home safe and sound.

May He destroy our enemies by making them our friends.

 

[benidict]

Hey, Merry Christmas to you and everyone in your troop.

As we commemorate the birth of the Prince of Peace, May peace reign in all hearts that wars may cease and that you may come home safe and sound.

May He destroy our enemies by making them our friends.

thank you, i can agree with this to a certain extent. but in the mean time. ill keep both my machine guns well maintained…lol! we do however try to win hearts and minds. and i thank you for that encouragement. Merry Christmas my dear sister

 

[benedictus2]

Predestination - The Catholic Position

I thought I’d re-post here something I posted in another thread.

Sometimes there is confusion as to where the Church stood with regards predestination as some cite St Augustine and St Thomas and claim that that is the Catholic position. But along side this is Molina who holds a different view.

Below are some text that gives us a guide as to where the Church stands on this issue.
Council of Orange - Canon 25. Concerning the love with which we love God. It is wholly a gift of God to love God. He who loves, even though he is not loved, allowed himself to be loved. We are loved, even when we displease him, so that we might have means to please him. For the Spirit, whom we love with the Father and the Son, has poured into our hearts the love of the Father and the Son (Rom. 5:5).

The following was taken from this link** pontifications.wordpress.com/predestination/**

In his apostolic constitution *Cum Occasione* (1635), P**ope Innocent X condemned the following Jansenist proposition**: “*It is Semi-Pelagian to say that Christ died or shed his blood for all human beings without exception.*” The Second Vatican Council asserted: “***The Word of God, through whom all things were made, was made flesh, so that as perfect man he could save ******all****** men and sum up all things in himself***” (*Gaudium et spes* 45).

The universal salvific will of the merciful God who has become incarnate in Jesus Christ underlies the documents of Vatican II, the encyclicals of John Paul II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.** It is true that some Catholic theologians, notably St Augustine, have restricted God’s salvific will to the elect; but the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has achieved dogmatic clarity on this matter and has ****rejected **this thesis.

In the words of the Catholic Catechism:
By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: “In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.” God “shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”

Further:

"Joined to the assertion of God’s provision of sufficient grace to all is the rejection of the thesis of the Jansenists that all grace is necessarily efficacious. In 1713 Pope Clement XI condemned the proposition that “Grace is the working of the omnipotent hand of God which nothing can hinder or retard” (Unigenitus Dei Filius). There is an authentic grace that is truly sufficient for salvation, which provides to the sinner the Spirit-enabled freedom to turn to God but does not necessarily and irresistably realize its salvific end, a grace that man may mysteriously and inexplicably reject.

**
**

 

[pablope]

Hi Pablo,

Thanks for that.

I think the one thing that most Calvinists fail to account for is the fact that God created all of us.

They always start with the proposition that we have a sin nature and that’s that.

But if God hates sin and sin is punishable by hell, one wonders why he would continue on making people who it seems have no other option but to sin.

Another thing that they have probably not thought out is that it makes prayer meaningless.

If we are all destined for either heaven or hell from the beginning, then what is the point of praying?

You are welcome, Benedictus2…I have been following the discussions here, and I agree with what you said, how can God be like that…and what is the point of religion, praying, worshipping, etc.

Have a Blessed Christmas.

pablope

 

[PRmerger]

What Paul is referring to is his suffering in spreading the gospel. Jesus did all that was necessary for salvation.

Right. Jesus did all that was necessary for our salvation; but Paul fills up what is lacking–his own sufferings are a participation in the redemptive act.

Thus, the Catholic Church provides the FULLNESS of Truth in that we teach about the redemptive nature of our suffering, when we freely unite it with the atoning death of Christ.

 

[benedictus2]

I do not believe God has to save anyone adult or child. God is able to save whomever He chooses.

Then why doesn’t He considering He created them all?

It is according to His sovereign purposes that anyone is saved. I do not know if there are elect or unelect children. We are all conceived with original sin so I would then suppose there are children in hell because it was Adam’s choice to sin.

So therefore you are saying that God is unjust. After all He knew that these children will be born through no will or their own, and that they will be born in a state of sin through no will of their own.

I mean if he is a really loving god, would it not be a more loving thing to do not to allow them to be conceived than to allow them to be conceive knowing that they, according to his will, will be damned forever?

Look at David’s sin with Bathsheba it caused the death of his new born son.

But Jericho, you always fall into this error. You keep citing passages that do not support your thesis.

All this says is that the baby was killed. Did the Bible also say that this baby was damned and is now in hell?

Sin certainly reaches further than we can even imagine.

Yes it does, and so does Grace. Where sin abounds according to St Paul, grace abounds even more.

 

[benedictus2]

****** Remember - Scripture CANNOT** contradict itself. It must remain harmonious.

****Too right! Have you ever noticed how protestants try to negate the Gospels by quoting Paul?

 

[benedictus2]

It’s not unreasonable to conclude that it amounts to the same thing if one is on the receiving end i.e. condemned/lost but I think I mentioned that Calvinists draw this distinction after it was suggested that predestination effectively made evangelism redundant.

And it is a fair conclusion. It does make evangelism redundant. Or even prayer for that matter. Prayer becomes pointless if Calvinistic predestination is correct.

If one is talking about fatalism then evangelism is indeed pointless but I think each Calvinist knows only that he or she is saved. None of them actually know who else is amongst the elect.

And how does a Calvinist know that he is saved? He DOES NOT KNOW THAT. A Calvinist is as likely to be damned as others. You or Jericho may afterall be headed for the furnace but you just don’t know it yet. And with a god who goes eeny meeny miny mo on who to saved your soul is very much in the chopping block.

It is therefore part of each Calvinist’s duty to evangelize in order that he or she can be an instrument of the sovereign God as He draws people to Himself.

Why would god need people to draw people to himself when even before we were born, everything has already been rigged, game, set and match.

Everyone who he wishes to drawn will be drawn regardless and everyone who he wishes to be damned will reject the preaching, regardless.

 

[JustaServant]

Jericho:
Why did God pick you and not your non-elect neighbor? If God takes nothing about the man into account, what logically distinguishes you from your neighbor? Look at it this way - you have two idenical lumps of clay in front of you - you want to make a lovely pot and a common pot - how do you choose which lump for which purpose?

 

[benedictus2]

It is interesting you are relying on Gods mercy to save Pharaoh after his death as with infants and unborn children. That would make salvation totally based on God’s choice and not mans. Sounds like Calvinism to me.

Nope. Does not sound like Calvinism at all.

Sounds like good Catholic Doctrine. We affirm God’s mercy. You don’t. You only pay it lip service and then proceed to show a blood thirsty god intent casting his creation to the furnace.

In good sound Catholic doctrine, salvation is indeed God’s choice but God chooses to save all. But the way he does it is by offering salvation not coercing them to be saved nor forcing them to be damned. Precisely because God is merciful, just and loving.

 

[benedictus2]

Jericho:
Why did God pick you and not your non-elect neighbor? If God takes nothing about the man into account, what logically distinguishes you from your neighbor? Look at it this way - you have two idenical lumps of clay in front of you - you want to make a lovely pot and a common pot - how do you choose which lump for which purpose?

Aaah , but Justin, Jericho does not know that really. He is only assuming he has been picked. He has got no real proof that he is one of the elect. There is a very good chance that he is one of the damned. He just does not know it yet.

 

[JustaServant]

Aaah , but Justa, Jericho does not know that really. He is only assuming he has been picked. He has got no real proof that he is one of the elect. There is a very good chance that he is one of the damned. He just does not know it yet.

That’s the problem, for them Hell is about the other guy, not them. And since they are the “elect”, it creates an elitist culture.
This is what stood out for me when I entered (briefly) into Reformed churches many years ago. In some ways I preferred the emotional immaturity of fundamentalists to the sanctimonious arrogance of Calvinists.
Many in the Reformed camp are very proud of their intellect and education. Nothing wrong with that. But I have observed personally Pastors use it to intimidate others.
I saw a great knowledge of theology, head knowledge of cold facts, that didn’t appear to translate into changed behavior or love for God. Jesus said ‘they shall know you by our love’, not our theology.
The reason I did not spend a long time among the Calvinists is because I clung to the God of love. This was the God I knew from my youth. The God the Catholic Church taught me to know.