Predestination/Calvinism

[truid]

hi Justaservant. just to be fair here. you must have gotten in with a very small fringe element within Calvinism. most do not teach a God of hate. very very few. WBC would be a good example of those that take Calvinism to its extreme. most Calvinist, are more evenhanded in their approach, but their logic, is flawed, as is their biblical backing for their views. Peace to you and yours.

Your opinion is noted. While I agree with your opinion that the WBC appears to be filled with hate. I do not know that they espouse any type of Calvinistic thinking. I’ve not had the opportunity to examine their theology or soteriology. But if they do have Calvinistic leanings, I’d say it was hyper-calvinism and not true Calvinism (reformed theology) they practiced.

You say Calvinism’s logic is flawed. I disagree. The thing most people seem to miss is PERSPECTIVE. You see, from our limited perspective, we believe we are in control. We have the freedom to choose left from right, and right from wrong. We make choices every day and therefore, based on our own experiences, we say God has given us free will.

The problem with this “logic” is that it is too limited. Limited to mankind’s point of view. It doesn’t take into consideration God’s point of view. Our perspective is limited, while God’s perspective is unlimited. I liken it to seeing things from above (like in an airplane) looking down below. You have a much bigger picture to see things clearly vs people on the ground, who look up and around themselves. Their view is limited by what’s surrounding them. God, thankfully, has no such limitations to block His view.

So, from God’s perspective, I find it very easy for Him to say who is “lost” and who is “found”. Who His elect are and who are not His elect. God makes that call, not you or I.

 

[jericho777]

No on e is “eternally lost” because they didn’t have the same opportunity to hear about Christ as we did. This, again, is a monster god who condemns folks for rejecting someone they never even hear of.

Jesus is the only way to heaven, but He is not just the 33 year old carpenter born in Bethlehem 2000 years ago. Jesus is the Eternal Logos.

[BIBLEDRB]Jn 1:9[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 17:23[/BIBLEDRB]

No. That’s absurd.

God does not owe anyone anything. But he wills the salvation of all.

So then we don’t have to obey the great commission? No one has to preach or go to all the world to make disciples of Christ because they already know. Honestly there are people who will never hear about the name of Jesus never mind consider He is God. Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” They will be eternally lost.
Rom 10:14-15 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

So then agnosticism is accepted by Jesus?

Your own religion says babies can’t go to heaven only limbo. That’s horrible isn’t it?

If God wills salvation for all men and few find it He must not have a very powerful will.

 

[PRmerger]

Look at the story of Pharaoh. Do Catholics weep for Pharaoh and shake their fists at God because God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and sent the plagues to destroy Pharaoh’s kingdom and to top it off God killed the first born son’s of Egypt, including Pharaoh’s own son? Doesn’t sound fair does it? And yet, God did it.

What Catholics object to is the idea that God predestined Pharaoh to hell.

Now, you want to talk about love? Yes, God is love. God knows exactly who will accept His gift of salvation and who will not. Therefore, I submit that God focuses His attention on those who He knows will accept His gift and He calls these people His elect. If God has always known who were His and who were not, why should we be angry at God? And why be angry at a doctrine which simply attempts to explain this?

We’re not angry at a doctrine. We just don’t believe double predestination is what God has revealed. If that’s what He proclaimed, then Catholics would be the first in line to profess it!

 

[truid]

Excellent! And that is the whole point. Before we talk of predestination we need to ask why God creates. What were we created for.

And the answer to that is we were created (and continues to be created) for Love, for an eternity of being in communion with Him.

If this is why God creates, then it stands to reason that He cannot predetermine from the beginning for some to be damned for the simple reason that it defeats His purpose for creation, He will be going against His very own Will.

You make some sweeping assumptions here. First, why do you assume God personally made you? I’m not saying God didn’t make anyone. Clearly, from the Bible, God made Adam and Eve. But did God procreate Adam and Eve’s children? No. God gave them the ability to do that. And so it has been this way since the beginning (Genesis).

I realize there are some verses in the Bible which indicate that God was involved in forming certain people (such as Jeremiah the prophet). And even putting the Spirit of God in John the Baptist while he was still in the womb. But nothing in the Bible says all of mankind was personally created by God. Indirectly, yeah, I guess you could say we were created by God. But directly? No, I don’t think that can be supported by scripture.

What a cruel god he would be to cast his own children down into hell to burn forever and ever.

 

[jericho777]

What Catholics object to is the idea that God predestined Pharaoh to hell.

So if God hardened Pharaoh’s heart keeping him from salvation then God has predestined him to hell.

 

[truid]

Three simple questions.

Can a person find God on their own?

Can a person initiate a relationship with God?

On your best day what have you done that God should save you?

Can a person find God on their own? No. God must first choose them. Then He draws them to Himself and cultivates the field of their heart so it is ready to receive the good seed of the gospel.

Can a person initiate a relationship with God? No. The carnal mind is at enmity with God. The condemnation of man is because man loved darkness more than the light. Choosing sin comes natural to us. To the point where man confuses evil for good and right for wrong. God must first initiate and restore the relationship which man ruined.

On my best day, the best I could do is recognize I am a sinner and beg for God’s mercy and grace and ask Him to forgive me. But I would never have recognized this had it not been for God revealing it to me in the first place. Otherwise, I would still be groveling in darkness.

 

[PRmerger]

So then we don’t have to obey the great commission? No one has to preach or go to all the world to make disciples of Christ because they already know.

This is not the logical conclusion of what I am proferring, jericho. I am saying that we just don’t know who is going to go to hell.

Just like, to paraphrase Peter Kreeft, a mother will try to warn her children who are skating on thin ice about the dangers of doing so. She doesn’t know for certain how many of her children might fall in, but she will do all she can to prevent them from this catastrophe.

Honestly there are people who will never hear about the name of Jesus never mind consider He is God. Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Amen!

They will be eternally lost.

Then this god is a monster.

Rom 10:14-15 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

Because, as I said, Jesus is more than the 33 year old carpenter born in Bethlehem. He is the Eternal Logos; he is the Way, the Truth and the Life…thus, those that seek the Way, the Truth and the Life, will find Him. All who seek will find.

So then agnosticism is accepted by Jesus?

OF COURSE! Jesus’ LOVE extends to all!! Do you not know the parable of the Good Samaritan?

Your own religion says babies can’t go to heaven only limbo. That’s horrible isn’t it?

Please stop mis-representing Catholicism, jericho. You may be reported for contempt for Catholicism for doing that.

My religion does not say babies can’t go to heaven. Limbo was theological speculation.

As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism. (CCC 1261)

If God wills salvation for all men and few find it He must not have a very powerful will.

Narrow is the way, but “few” is how many? God has not revealed that to us. Perhaps, to God, one lost, while the remainder of humanity is “few” indeed. Remember the parable of the Lost Sheep?

 

[PRmerger]

So if God hardened Pharaoh’s heart keeping him from salvation then God has predestined him to hell.

Ok. But where does it say that God kept Pharaoh from salvation?

Having a hardened heart surely is not a condemnation to hell, for are there not many stories of those whose hearts are hardened who became saints?

 

[truid]

If you read (as I have) the writings of some of the mainstream Calvinists like R C Sproul and John MacArthur, that is exactly the message. They might bury it in theological language to make it sound acceptable, but its the same road.

I would recommend Monergism.com and maybe browse through their recommended books, such as: Justified: Modern Reformation Essays on the Doctrine of Justification. Or, “Sinners in the Hands of a Good God: Reconciling Divine Judgment and Mercy”. Another good read is: “The God Who Is There: Finding Your Place in God’s Story.”

I have read both R.C. Sproul and John MacArthur and I have no problem with how they’ve presented Calvinistic doctrines.

 

[jericho777]

Can a person find God on their own? No. God must first choose them. Then He draws them to Himself and cultivates the field of their heart so it is ready to receive the good seed of the gospel.

Can a person initiate a relationship with God? No. The carnal mind is at enmity with God. The condemnation of man is because man loved darkness more than the light. Choosing sin comes natural to us. To the point where man confuses evil for good and right for wrong. God must first initiate and restore the relationship which man ruined.

On my best day, the best I could do is recognize I am a sinner and beg for God’s mercy and grace and ask Him to forgive me. But I would never have recognized this had it not been for God revealing it to me in the first place. Otherwise, I would still be groveling in darkness.

You’re the only one so far to get it right. That’s why salvation is 100% of God.

 

[truid]

Actually Catholics agree with certain aspects of what you would call Calvinism, we just do not take it to the lengths Calvinists have.
So let me ask: Does God hate sinners?

I can’t say that I’ve ever read any specific scripture that says God hates anyone. Except for Him loving Jacob and hating Esau. But beyond that, I think “hate” is too strong a word to describe one of God’s characteristics. Especially since He is called “Love” (1 John 4:7-8).

 

[benedictus2]

Dear Benedicus: Have it as you will, but what you are saying doesn’t make any sense to me.

Your friend
Sufjon

Okay, let’s take this one point at a time.

Can I ask you to number the points in my post and then can you tell which ones do not make sense to you?

 

[benedictus2]

You sound angry. Apparently you disagree with what the Apostle Paul wrote (by inspiration) in Romans 9:16-24.

Not angry. Exasperated at the absence of rational thought in some of these responses.

The one I replied to did not really think about the implications of his absurd post.

 

[jericho777]

Ok. But where does it say that God kept Pharaoh from salvation?

Having a hardened heart surely is not a condemnation to hell, for are there not many stories of those whose hearts are hardened who became saints?

If you remember Pharaoh decided to let the Jews go. But then persued them to kill them.Ex 14:4,17-18 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” So the Israelites did this.
17I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. 18The Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen.”

Then God destroyed Pharaoh and the Egyptions that He would be glorified. It’s pretty self evident Pharaoh was not saved.

If your heart is hard you cannot accept God. Please do a word search.

 

[Sufjon]

Okay, let’s take this one point at a time.

Can I ask you to number the points in my post and then can you tell which ones do not make sense to you?

Hi Benedictus:

1. Sentencing someone to hell for all time is the same as accidentally hurting your child while pushing her out if the way of an oncoming vehicle. You don’t send someone to hell trying to save them. I still don’t get that one.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[benedictus2]

This explains it perfectly. Are wills are bound by the nature we posses. Does this conflict with your view of free will?

But ask yourself this

If our wills are bound by the nature we posses, then who created our nature?

 

[benedictus2]

This verse.

Romans 9:11-13 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Well no, completely wrong.

Re-read that verse and show me where in that verse, it is written that in choosing Jacob God is saving him and taking him to even, and that God is sending Essau to hell by not preferring him.

I await your response.

 

[truid]

God gives us the grace of initial salvation.
However - the Scriptures are adamantly clear that this salvation can be lost:
****Rom. 11:22, ******Heb. 10:26-27, ****2 Peter 2:20-22, ****Matt. 7:21, ****1 Cor. 9:27, ****1 Cor. 4:4, ****Matt. 24:13, ****Matt. 7:19-23, ****Rev. 3:5, **Rev.n 22:19

---

1 Cor. 3:9 tells us that as co-workers (Sunergos) with God, we cooperate with his grace - plain and simple. Simply believing in Christ makes you no better than the demons who also believe James 2:19. We MUST cooperate with God in order to be saved and Jesus was CLEAR on that:

Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)

Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)

**Works **of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)

Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)

Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)

Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)

We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Wow, you really are a “hard core Catholic”

Let’s take a look at some of those proof-texts you pulled out.

You say: “the Scriptures are adamantly clear that this salvation can be lost:”

Rom. 11:22, This verse is better understood in context (vv 16-24) and in no way declares individual salvation can be lost. The same God who cuts off a branch is able to graft it back into the tree. Simply stating God can do something doesn’t mean He will do it.

Heb. 10:26-27, Again, context is everything. And I noticed you ignored the word “if” in verse 26. I noticed in verse 39 the author doesn’t use the word “if” but instead makes a declarative statement: “But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and obtain life.”

2 Peter 2:20-22, could it be? Once again, CONTEXT reveals the truth! I’d recommend reading the entire chapter and not just a couple of verses. The chapter is dealing with false teachers. Obviously, false teachers are not saved and never were. They gained a little knowledge and twisted and perverted the gospel message. That is why it would have been better for them had they never known the truth about Jesus the Christ. But do you not know that teachers will receive a stricter judgment?

Matt. 7:21, Again, CONTEXT! Just because a person claims to follow Jesus, it does not mean they were ever saved to begin with. It’s called self-deception people. Notice in verse 23 Jesus tells them “I never knew you!” That is the key here. It didn’t matter that they claimed to know Jesus. The reality is, He (Jesus) never knew them! Sure, Jesus is God and is Omniscient. But that doesn’t mean they were accepted by Jesus. It’s like when a friend introduces you to His other friends. He’s saying “yeah, I know him. He’s with Me.” If Jesus don’t know you, it’s because you are not with Him.

1 Cor. 9:27, Again, and again I say CONTEXT! When will people learn! Any text taken out of context is a pretext! Does anyone actually believe Paul was afraid of losing his salvation? Do you really believe the race Paul talks about in 1 Cor. 9 is talking about salvation? Seriously?

1 Cor. 4:4, That’s right, Jesus is the one who judges us. Yet, Jesus also said that none of whom God gives Him will He ever lose. Not one! Jesus said: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-30.

Matt. 24:13, I noticed it did NOT say “and he who does not endure to the end will be lost.” Of course, I’m sure you’re just reading that into the text. But you know, you are making a huge assumption here. You assume that God’s elect, or at least some of them, will not endure to the end. Why is that? Because nothing could be further from the truth.

Matt. 7:19-23, Once again, those who are thrown into the fire are not the elect. They are false believers. They put on a good show and may have convinced themselves that they are “true believers” but the evidence is in the fruit they produce (or lack of it).

Rev. 3:5, Rev.n 22:19 Again, it says He will NOT blot out their name. Nowhere does it say that God’s elect are ever in danger of losing their salvation. Nice try, but you failed.

 

[truid]

That wasn’t what I asked.
Do you believe God hates the “non-elect”?

Sounds like a loaded question to me. Why don’t you just pull the trigger sport.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Benedictus:

1. Sentencing someone to hell for all time is the same as accidentally hurting your child while pushing her out if the way of an oncoming vehicle. You don’t send someone to hell trying to save them. I still don’t get that one.

Your friend
Sufjon

Well no. How can accidentally hurting your child be the same as sentencing someone to hell?

In the analogy I gave, if the father had allowed his child to be squashed under the speeding truck, then that would be the equivalent of sending her to hell (i.e. death.)

But the fact that the father pushed the child out of death’s way, out of sure death by being squashed by the speeding truck, (with a few bruises and a broken arm in the process) means that he actually pushed her out of hells way.

Does that make sense?