Predestination/Calvinism

[truid]

What bothers me a slight bit is that people always assume that a Catholic must be Roman, when one can be a Ukrainian or Byzantine Catholic etc., and it’s known as the Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church (when addressing the full community, rather than the individual rites. Back to the point I was about to make though…

Considering the historical record (Councils of Rome, Hippo, Carthage, etc.) as being rather well known to be when the biblical canon was compiled (who else compiled the books? If you can present some sort of historical proof, I’d be rather shocked). And of course it was considered by God long before, because God was the one who inspired them! (Duh.) However, the Catholic Church (CC) has proclaimed this on Earth, whereas no other ‘church’ was around to compile, and authoritively define the scriptures that are commonly used today.

Moving on though, this is a thread about Predestination/Calvinism, NOT Biblical canon or Church history. Focus on the topic presented please.

That’s why I said I might start a new thread on this particular topic. If a thread has already been started, then I’ll take my “off-topic” comments to the appropriate thread.

BTW, I thought I was responding to a Roman Catholic and not to Catholics in general.

 

[PRmerger]

Believe. As the Scriptures clearly state. I don’t have a problem with dedicating a child to the Lord’s service. If you want to sprinkle it’s head with water or dip your finger in “holy water” and make the sign of the cross on it’s face, fine by me. I just don’t think getting wet cleanses you of spiritual dirt. It’s not bad for physical dirt, but I digress. . . .

Yes, you do digress.

Our discussion was regarding whether Catholics believe God’s grace is totally unmerited.

Clearly, infant baptism proposes that we do believe this.

Your belief does not seem to be in concert with unmerited grace.

As to whether baptism actually does anything is a topic of a different sort.

 

[fred_conty]

Thanks Jericho:

These are some of the things I find puzzling, and I have some questions on that if I may. If God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost, is that predetermined, or does He find out later after it happens and then judge people? If He knew all along, then why would He make all of the people who ultimately don;t make it? The only purpose I can see in that would be to watch some people suffer. If on the other hand He doesn’t know the outcome of each soul beforehand, then He is lacking in knowledge, and makes things that go awry. Case in point is the the story of Noah you mentioned. It didn’t seem He was happy with the outcome on how people acted in Noah’s time. This means He created a world that didn’t turn out the way He wanted it to, so He got mad and broke it. Let’s call that the free will version of God. That means that He is the sort of creator who makes things that don’t turn out the way He plans and then gets mad and busts it up like so many toys when He doesn’t get His way. The alternative is that He knew people would turn out the unlike what He wanted and created them anyway so He could destroy them. Let’s call that the no-free will God. In either case, it would seem rather sad to me that we would have that sort of creator. So, I have three questions. First, can you tell me if there is a third alternative other than the two I listed? Secondly, can you tell me which of these creators you think we have, and thirdly, how do you come to love something like that? I can easily see how you could fear something like that, but loving it would be another matter. Being one of His creations would seem to be like being the child of some twisted guy who keeps you trapped and tormented in his basement and he only lets you out to play in the yard when you make him feel good. Is it something like Stockholm Syndrome?

Thanks for your patience and help.

Your friend,
Sufjon

Hi. All that anyone can say is it is complicated and baffaling. But I see from history of most people on earth that they do worship and have some idea of a God who is in control, and beautiful and from whom all good things come thru asking. The person who believes in Jesus Christ knows he came for everyone and in ways beyound our comprehension touches everyone for the better. We know he treats us kindly. We know he allows us to decide matters. But we also know he is fair to us. I can’t explain all the nouances and all the factors coming together to make it all happen. That’s what a mystery is. That is what God is. But I know from my own expierence that He is wonderful in his gentleness and I know it will work out for everyone else as well, for he is mighty and can make it happen in the best way possible.

 

[PRmerger]

BTW, I thought I was responding to a Roman Catholic and not to Catholics in general.

The Roman (or Latin) rite is only one of 23 sui juris churches that are all in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Thus, if you are talking to a Roman Catholic about Catholic doctrine, you are really talking to the other 22 sui juris churches in communion with us.

 

[PRmerger]

This does make sense. And I suppose from that story, I’ve just assumed Pharaoh and his army died and went to hell. But I can’t say the Bible explicitly says this. But I think it is implied.

Fair enough.

Will you also accept Catholic arguments for things we propose are “implied” in Scripture?

Incidentally, did you know that Catholics are not allowed to declare that someone is in hell? We cannot know, for that is only God’s to know.

 

[SyCarl]

I love this post! The way I’ve explained it is by PERSPECTIVE. There is God’s unlimited perspective and then there is Man’s very limited perspective. From our perspective, we have “free will”. And from God’s perspective, (and ultimate reality) He is in control, the sovereign King. :bowdown2:

I was not arguing for the Calvinist view. What I am saying is that both the Calvinist view and the opposing view, represented in this thread by the Catholic view but equally applicable to Arminianism, can be true without encompassing the whole truth.

Scripture tells us:

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

(Rom 9:18-24 NASB)

This passage, and particuliarly the reference to “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” is very strongly in support of predestination.

However Scripture also tells us:

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

(1Ti 2:3-4 NASB)

This passage points strongly to freewill because if God desires something He can certainly have it so He must have some reason that all are not saved. It cannot be because Jesus’ sacrifice is not sufficient to save all. To me it is because God wants us to choose Him.

A mistake many monergists seem to make is to deny that God, in exercise of His sovereignty, cannot decide to give men a free choice. This is as much denying the sovereignty of God, by denying it the right to give others the ability to make a decision, as denying predestination does.

Both sides, by insisting that only they can be right instead of recognizing with God that both can be right, are perpetuating division.

 

[PRmerger]

This ASSUMES the Catholic Church (as in the RCC) was in existence when the first NT manuscripts were written. I personally don’t believe the RCC (as it is now recognized) existed prior to the 4th century.

Ok. But it was a Church which had bishops, and a pope, that celebrated the liturgy, venerated Mary, proclaimed the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, prayed for the dead, prayed to the saints…if it wasn’t Catholic then what was it?

And is your church founded on the same guys who were around to canonize the Scriptures? That is, who anointed your pastor? Was it someone who was anointed by someone who was anointed by someone who was anointed by * * someone who was anointed by the Apostles who were anointed by Jesus?

 

[fbl9]

It’s not that simple. Theoretically, yes, we have the “power” to choose. The problem is, in practicality, we often “choose” based on our innate urges and instincts. Our instincts such as the desire for food, shelter, clothing, sex, etc. These are all programmed in our genes. The “natural” response is to indulge in things that make us feel good. Moderation is not something we are born with. That is a learned trait. So, to say we have the ability to choose between the flesh and God is not so cut and dry.

In your present state of “election” can you choose between indugling your flesh or God?

Is it essential to beleive in the doctrine you are presenting?
Does one need to beleive in this doctrine to be saved.

 

[Sufjon]

I did not see a third option, either.

I saw yours–“that the malfunction had to be inherent in the design”

and my (that is, the Catholic) option: We were originally created holy, sinless and good, but due to the free will of our first parents, we lost this Sanctifying Grace. Thus, when one looks at this world and shakes his head in sadness and disbelief–what are we doing to each other??–it is not a result of a defect in God’s creative design, but rather a self-imposed consequence of the loss of Sanctifying Grace.

Thus, I don’t understand why you are proposing that you can “only” reason your option.

Indeed. He knows all. He exists in the Eternal Now. I don’t see how that is a problem whatsoever.

Just consider the Catholic one!

All time is the Eternal Now to Him Who IS Eternity.

Or, the Catholic response which is: we are by Grace what He is by nature.

I am citing the Eternal Now.

I don’t know about any third option. I just know yours, and the Catholic answer.

Hi PRMerger: I get the Eternal Now part of what you are saying. That is very mystical and mysticism is what I am accustomed to. I don’t know if I can go with God shaking His head in disbelief, since He knows everything past, present and future (or in the Eternal Now).

The fundamental problem I have with understanding Christian thought revolves around some of this. I want to be clear that I am not saying that I reject Christianity. I am saying that there are things I don’t get. This is a big one. If God WANTED us to be with Him, and we created the conditions that caused us not to be with Him, He gave us the ability to take that option knowing full well that we would indeed take that option, which is not what He wanted. It follows from my understanding of Christian theology, there are souls who never make it back. They go to hell forever, even though God doesn’t want that. It makes perfect sense to me that God would let us run afoul for a time, but only if He built into the design that every creature eventually makes it back. That way He gets what He wants. In that model souls eventually decide to be good because they wear the bad out of themselves.The desire to do wrong is burned away, and one by one, all things come back of their own volition. That makes sense to me. The ultimate failure of any relationship between God and any soul in the long-term does not make sense. God loses a soul and a soul loses God. That is so counter intuitive to me that I can’t get my head around it.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Hi. All that anyone can say is it is complicated and baffaling. But I see from history of most people on earth that they do worship and have some idea of a God who is in control, and beautiful and from whom all good things come thru asking. The person who believes in Jesus Christ knows he came for everyone and in ways beyound our comprehension touches everyone for the better. We know he treats us kindly. We know he allows us to decide matters. But we also know he is fair to us. I can’t explain all the nouances and all the factors coming together to make it all happen. That’s what a mystery is. That is what God is. But I know from my own expierence that He is wonderful in his gentleness and I know it will work out for everyone else as well, for he is mighty and can make it happen in the best way possible.

Hi Fred: I can’t disagree with you. Beautifully said too.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[elvisman]

Hi elvis, I don’t see it your way based on scripture. It is clear God chooses us not the other way around. He purposes us to be saved and then completes it in us. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. The footsteps of a righteous man are ordered by God.

He chose Jacob over Esau before they were born not based on how good they would be, but so Gods’ purpose of election would stand. Romans 9:11-13 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

You are missing that freewill is based on the nature we posses. There are two classes of people those with the mind of Christ and those with the carnal mind. Romans 8:5-11 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Paul believed in predestination yet he preached any way. We don’t know who God will save, we are to be faithful and preach. Not just anybody can be saved only those God has chosen. Acts 13:48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Why don’t you like God being able to choose who He wants to save anyway? Is it that you think He would make a mistake and not choose you or that you’ve worked really hard at being good and He owes it to you?

Because the Calvinist view renders God as nothing but a cosmic rapist who forces his love on us and doesn’t give us a choice. He is also a monster in the Calvinist view because he actually creates people simply to throw them into hell at his pleasure.

That is NOT the Gody of Christianity nor is it the God of the Bible - it is a twisted freak of a monster.

You fail to understand what the Scriptures say about God and salvation - in CONTEXT. Instead, you cherry-pick verses to create a God that simply does not exist. Salvation is something that is given to us by God and can be lost by US. I have given you ample Scriptural evidence to support this yet you continue to dodge them.
Answer the following verses according to your Calvinist views:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:20-22
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

 

[elvisman]

continued . . .

---

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

1 Cor. 4:4
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me."

1 Timothy 4:1
**The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. **

Revelation 3:5
**He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. **

Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

 

[elvisman]

Wow, you really are a “hard core Catholic”

Let’s take a look at some of those proof-texts you pulled out.

You say: “the Scriptures are adamantly clear that this salvation can be lost:”

Rom. 11:22, This verse is better understood in context (vv 16-24) and in no way declares individual salvation can be lost. The same God who cuts off a branch is able to graft it back into the tree. Simply stating God can do something doesn’t mean He will do it.

Heb. 10:26-27, Again, context is everything. And I noticed you ignored the word “if” in verse 26. I noticed in verse 39 the author doesn’t use the word “if” but instead makes a declarative statement: “But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and obtain life.”

2 Peter 2:20-22, could it be? Once again, CONTEXT reveals the truth! I’d recommend reading the entire chapter and not just a couple of verses. The chapter is dealing with false teachers. Obviously, false teachers are not saved and never were. They gained a little knowledge and twisted and perverted the gospel message. That is why it would have been better for them had they never known the truth about Jesus the Christ. But do you not know that teachers will receive a stricter judgment?

WRONG.
**Unfortunately for you, you are reading Heb. 10:26-27 and Rom. 11:22 with blinders on, my friend. The author of Hebrews and Peter are both speaking of a real experiential knowledge, Epignosis - not simply a knowldege of the truth , which would be Gnosis. **

They are speaking about people who have had a true, living knowledge of the Lord - not just somebody who paid lip-service. I suggest you learn the meanings of the words instead of merely skimming over them.

Matt. 7:21, Again, CONTEXT! Just because a person claims to follow Jesus, it does not mean they were ever saved to begin with. It’s called self-deception people. Notice in verse 23 Jesus tells them “I never knew you!” That is the key here. It didn’t matter that they claimed to know Jesus. The reality is, He (Jesus) never knew them! Sure, Jesus is God and is Omniscient. But that doesn’t mean they were accepted by Jesus. It’s like when a friend introduces you to His other friends. He’s saying “yeah, I know him. He’s with Me.” If Jesus don’t know you, it’s because you are not with Him.

And there are multitudes of people living “Christian” lives whom Jesus does not know. Everybody who rejects his Body may fall into that category. The Bible states over and over that his Body is the CHURCH. (Acts 9:4-5. 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 1:22-23).
All those who reject God’s Church are rejecting him (Luke 10:16).

1 Cor. 9:27, Again, and again I say CONTEXT! When will people learn! Any text taken out of context is a pretext! Does anyone actually believe Paul was afraid of losing his salvation? Do you really believe the race Paul talks about in 1 Cor. 9 is talking about salvation? Seriously?

Absolutely. In 2 Tim. 4:7, Paul again refers to the road to salvation as being a race:
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."

Burying your head in the sand will not change the meaning of his words . . .

 

[elvisman]

1 Cor. 4:4, That’s right, Jesus is the one who judges us. Yet, Jesus also said that none of whom God gives Him will He ever lose. Not one! Jesus said: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-30.

AMEN.
Jesus will never lose any one of us. WE, however CAN and DO walk away from him. God’s mercy allows us to come back to him in repentance.

You should have learned this from the Parable of the Prodigal Son. What do you think Jesus was talking about? **CERTAINLY not irresistable grace . . .

Matt. 24:13, I noticed it did NOT say “and he who does not endure to the end will be lost.” Of course, I’m sure you’re just reading that into the text. But you know, you are making a huge assumption here. You assume that God’s elect, or at least some of them, will not endure to the end. Why is that? Because nothing could be further from the truth.

WOW. That is some pretty convoluted logic.
**This verse states plainly that some WON’T endure to the end. Paul states in 1 Timothy 4:1 that, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

READ the words, my spiritually prideful friend: ABANDON THE FAITH.
This means that they HAD faith to begin with and LOST it. because they abandoned it and failed to endure.

Rev. 3:5, Rev.n 22:19 Again, it says He will NOT blot out their name. Nowhere does it say that God’s elect are ever in danger of losing their salvation. Nice try, but you failed.

Revelation 3:5
**He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. **
The fact that he CAN blot out their name is clear evidence that he WILL unless they overcome. - that is ENDURE.

Again - you have to do some pretty fancy Scriptural acrobatics to arrive at your convoluted positions.

So, you see . . . you failed, friend.

 

[elvisman]

I agree, Jesus “ain’t no fool”. Your posts reveal that you really don’t know anything at all about Calvinism. You are ignorant and yet you continue to mock something without truly understanding it. How foolish is that? It would be equally foolish for a non-Catholic to mock and ridicule Catholic doctrine without trying to understand it. But yet, this is exactly what you are doing.

ETA: shall I mock you by falsely accusing you of worshiping Mary? Yes, that would be foolish. Especially since you don’t worship Mary. But the fool is one who thinks he knows what you believe when in reality they don’t even have a clue.

The better part of my 13 siblings are Calvinists so I have a pretty good understanding of Calvinist doctrines, regardless of what you think, friend.

**As for calling me “ignorant” - I’d be careful. Those sorts of ad hominem attacks *aren’*****t looked on very favorably by the moderators and can result in suspension or a ban of your membership . . .

 

[elvisman]

God creates according to His divine will, purpose and pleasure. Can we agree on that?

Why did God turn Pharaoh’s heart stone cold? Why not simply allow Pharaoh’s heart to soften naturally and let Pharaoh willingly set the children of Israel free?

Is there some universal law that God must abide by that says He cannot interfere with our “free will”? If so, I’d like to see it. Because the Bible is replete with stories of divine intervention where God interfered with the will of man. Does this make God unjust?

If God created a person for a specific task, does that man’s “free will” over-ride the original purpose and task God created him for? Was Judas predestined to betray Jesus? Was Jesus predestined to be whipped & scourged and hung on the cross? Could Jesus have changed His mind and said, “eh, my will be done, not your’s Father” when He prayed in the Garden? Some things are the way they are and can be no other way simply because God has decreed it.

As I told Jericho - your flawed view of predestination is a failure to understand God’s eternal state. Neither Mary’s “yes” nor Judas’s treachery were coerced by God. God cannot be the author of evil.

**Judas could have repended and been saved. Judas CHOSE instead to despair and commit suicide. God didn’t hang him or drive him to it. Neither did God force Mary into bearing his Son. She was troubled by the angel’s message and chose to be faithful to God.

Finally - your statements about Jesus’ passion and death are stunningly preposterous because Jesus IS GOD.

 

[benidict]

benidict, benidict, benidict. I shall be kind to you (and hopefully less condescending than you were to Jericho).

I’m glad you admit to not being saved. That’s a relief. The funny thing is, you aren’t even redeemed. And neither is the world. Death and decay are still part of our existence (in this world). Therefore, to say the world has been redeemed is completely false as evidenced by our present decaying world. I have no doubt the world will be redeemed and transformed into a state of existence that endures forever. You see, the problem really is you don’t understand the difference between justification and sanctification. At least not from a Calvinist point of view. So, by all means, continue in your ignorance. Because as they say, “ignorance is bliss.”

oh goody. another fundy for me to love i dont see how i was condescending to jericho. i was actually being kind. you however i will only be charitable to. so are you denying the words of Jesus on the Cross, when he said, “it is finished.” are you denying he came to redeem that which was lost? that we are his ambassadors? i am not the one who is ignorant my friend. it is you, and your limited understanding of what the Church is, and what it was placed here to do, and what it does on a daily basis, that suffers from ignorance. and that my friend is not your fault. you have never been shown the truth about these things. i hold your teachers responsible for your lack of education in this area. and you are new here. so i will forgive the cocky attitude you posses. Peace

 

[benidict]

That’s because it is NOT a valid criticism of our beliefs. But he’ll just keep on punching that fallacious argument because it makes him feel superior to the “foolish” people who are called Calvinists.

if you had read on, you would have seen that i responded to his post, stating that most of it was tongue in cheek. my parents ARE calvinist. very strict calvinist as well. calvinist teaching was forced down my throat growing up. i dont see myself as superior. just humbled that God would be gracious enough to shine the light on the truth, and expose the lies.

 

[benidict]

As I told Jericho - your flawed view of predestination is a failure to understand God’s eternal state. Neither Mary’s “yes” nor Judas’s treachery were coerced by God. God cannot be the author of evil.

Judas could have repended and been saved. Judas CHOSE instead to despair and commit suicide. God didn’t hang him or *drive *him to it. Neither did God force Mary into bearing his Son. She was troubled by the angel’s message and chose to be faithful to God.

Finally - your statements about Jesus’ passion and death are stunningly preposterous because Jesus IS GOD.

wow! elvisman, im going to just sit back and give my support now and again. your are doing an incredible job, at refuting our friend here. think ill just sit back and enjoy the show. :bowdown: Peace to you and yours.

 

[benedictus2]

I love this response! May I quote you? Seriously, this is the best response I’ve seen from the old “that’s a loaded question” retort!

Thank you. I am glad you like it and you can use it.

Since you obviously agree with me that there are no loaded questions if you have a good defense, then would you care to answer JustaServants questions

That wasn’t what I asked.
Do you believe God hates the “non-elect”?

I know he addressed this to Jericho, but since you commented maybe you have an answer?