Predestination/Calvinism

[benedictus2]

I’m not entirely sure that Calvinists would accept your conclusion as a valid criticism of their belief system. I think they draw a distinction between predestination and fatalism.

Convivially,
Mick

Would you care to enlighten us how the distinction is made?

 

[benedictus2]

Let’s look at it this way. Do you blame God because there are people who will be eternally lost because they didn’t have the same opportunity to hear about Christ as you? Not everyone has the same measure of grace either. DO you blame God because there are people who live in communist countries and have miserable lives? Lastly do you think God owes anyone salvation?

Hey great question.

1. So I ask you do you believe God is Love? John says He is.
2. If you believe no 1, then how come a God who is love, creates people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell?

 

[benedictus2]

You sound angry. Apparently you disagree with what the Apostle Paul wrote (by inspiration) in Romans 9:16-24.

You know what? When Calvinists cite these passages as proof text for predestination, it really shows that either a) they don’t understand the Bible or b) they just don’t think when they read the Bbile because they come to all sorts of ludicrous conclusions.

Now let us have the full text here so we know what we are talking about
’Romans 9:16-24
16 So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18 Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”
20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22 What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23 This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,**
**24 namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.
**
Now I want you to read those verses maybe two or three times and then answer these questions"

1. Where does it say in the above verses that God damns any one to salvation? I read it so many times and I can not find even a hint of an allusion to it.
2. Where does it say that God, from the beginning created human beings and even before they were created had determined that they will be damned.**

 

[benedictus2]

You say Calvinism’s logic is flawed. I disagree. The thing most people seem to miss is PERSPECTIVE. You see, from our limited perspective, we believe we are in control. We have the freedom to choose left from right, and right from wrong. We make choices every day and therefore, based on our own experiences, we say God has given us free will.

No. What is evident in the Calvinistic view of predestination is the short supply of logic and rational thought.

I have raised this question before many times in several different threads.

Now perhaps you will be one who can finally answer this and perhaps maybe show that Calvininism (as I would call presdestination) is not a ridiculous ism.

These are the things we know about God from the Bible.

First, We all know that God is the only Creator so therefore He created all of us.

Second. We say that God is merciful.

Third. We also say that God is just.

Fourth. We also say that God is love.

Now that we have all these laid out, how can we say that God is both Love and Just if being the only Creator, He creates human beings just for the sole purpose of sending them to hell?

Let me show you what the equivalent of that is in terms of human parenthood.

You have a couple who decides they will have ten children.

Even before they conceive, they have determined that once baby 1, 3, 5,7, and 9 comes out, they will love them so totally and will see that they have everything that they could possibly give them.

But they have also determined (even before conception) that babies 2,4,6,8 and 10 they will have, and torture for as long as they shall live. They are already imagining the various ways of inflicting pain and suffering on these children when they finally say “Hello World”.

No matter how you may twist, turn, flip, twirl Calvinistic explanation of predestination, that is what it amounts to.

So therefore you are left with a schizophrenic, murderous, psychotic god.

The final part you need to explain as well is how do you reconcile that with the God of the Bible who came and died on the cross that all may have eternal life.

 

[JustaServant]

For many years I relied on the argument that while God knew what our actions and choices are, were, and will be, that knowledge did not interfere with His gift to us of our free will. We were absolutely free to make our own choices and He, not being bound by the constraints of time as we understand it, knew our choices ‘a priori’. I still am comfortable with this view and I see it as a facinating possibility of our comprehension of quantum physics (that opens up a whole new line of discussion).
However, I remember a conversation with a wise old Jesuit concerning our relationship to God and how we should approach Him. The good Father asked me to recall how Our Lord taught us to pray. He said to address God as OUR FATHER. Then he asked me what language did Our Lord use when speaking to the people of his time on Earth. Aramaic, I answered. Right, and what word in Aramaic was used? ABBA. Now, he smiled, ABBA is actually the familiar diminuitive form of the word for father and is best translated as ‘daddy’.
We are taught to approach God as loving children to our loving Father.
I gave some thought to this and in addition to realizing the wonderful implications of actually being the loved child of a loving Father I saw something else that applied to the discussion at hand. If we take for granted that God does exist and that He is as our Lord and Saviour taught us, then it naturally follows that as a loving Father He could not arbitrarilly condenm untold millions of His beloved children to eternal damnation because they simply were not part of the ‘elect’ and were lost no matter what they did or how they lived. Such action would be contrary to the Nature of God Who we were taught to love by Our Lord Himself, being one Person of this Triune God.
To my knowledge, the only ‘god’ in history who fits this description was Molloch who demanded child sacrifice.
Therefore, it is not too much of a stretch to conclude that calvinists and their ilk actually worship the pagan ‘god’ Molloch. It seems to be a strong argument that we should pray for them to turn away from this false belief and return to the worship of our loving Father, our Daddy who gives us His unconditional love.
One more thought on this subject, our late Holy Father John Paul II said in a widely quoted address regarding what should we think about what happens after we die struck me as providing blazing insight into something that if we think it through to its conclusion should be seen obvious. The Holy Father said, “Because our Holy Mother the Church tells us so we must believe that there is a hell. We are not, however, required to believe that there is anyone in it!”

First of all, welcome to the forum.
Second, this is a great post and thank you.

 

[JustaServant]

Thank you. I am glad you like it and you can use it.

Since you obviously agree with me that there are no loaded questions if you have a good defense, then would you care to answer JustaServants questions

I know he addressed this to Jericho, but since you commented maybe you have an answer?

I wish I had time this morning to go back and read all the posts, so if he did he’ll have to re-post it.
Jesus said “For God so loved the WORLD…” Not just the ‘elect’.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Remain of the topic of the OP please.

 

[benedictus2]

You make some sweeping assumptions here.

Sweeping assumptions? They are Biblical and logical.

First, why do you assume God personally made you?

Are you for real? Who do you think made you? The Genie? Or maybe the Aliens?

I’m not saying God didn’t make anyone. Clearly, from the Bible, God made Adam and Eve. But did God procreate Adam and Eve’s children? No. God gave them the ability to do that. And so it has been this way since the beginning (Genesis).

Then pray tell, do you think that any of these other people who you say was not created by God would have been conceived without God’s permission?

Do you think anyone is conceived without God’s say so? Therefore there is another creator other than God?

I realize there are some verses in the Bible which indicate that God was involved in forming certain people (such as Jeremiah the prophet). And even putting the Spirit of God in John the Baptist while he was still in the womb. But nothing in the Bible says all of mankind was personally created by God.

For goodness sake, think Druid. There are many childless couples who try with all their might and with every possible known ways to “create” children and yet they can’t. Surely if we are the “creators’, these people would be able to “create” children at will.

You really have a very, very, very, strange understanding of the Bible.

Indirectly, yeah, I guess you could say we were created by God. But directly? No, I don’t think that can be supported by scripture.

That distinction is foolish. God has a hand in every creation even when He uses other creatures to bring about his creation.

Have you every read Psalm 139. If you’ve forgotten, then I suggest you get re-acquainted with it. Read it meditatively.

What a cruel god he would be to cast his own children down into hell to burn forever and ever.

Exactly! Exactly! Exactly!

And that is the kind of god that one finds in the ism called Calvinism. That the Calvinists have not come to that most logical conclusion is because they have failed to exercise the grey cells and take the reasoning to it’s terrifying but inevitable conclusion.

Why, there was even a lawyer who kept gong round and round and round trying to defend Calvinistic predestination and for all his legal education, there seems to be in place a blinker that stops him from seeing something so obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;7386423:

I’m not entirely sure that Calvinists would accept your conclusion as a valid criticism of their belief system. I think they draw a distinction between predestination and fatalism.

Convivially,
Mick

Would you care to enlighten us how the distinction is made?

Fatalism is the philosophy of people that believe in fate whereas predestination is the belief of those that believe in the sovereignty of God.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[benedictus2]

Ok. But where does it say that God kept Pharaoh from salvation?

Aaah, water on parched land.

This is the most humongous and glaring error that Calvinists fall into.

When they see temporal things happening, they make eschatological conclusions from them.

God chose Jacob so therefore Essau is condemned to hell.

This is the error that they keep making over and over and over again.

Once they actually learn to spot this, I think their Calvinism will crumble like so much cookie in Cookie Monsters mouth.

 

[benedictus2]

Fatalism is the philosophy of people that believe in fate whereas predestination is the belief of those that believe in the sovereignty of God.

Cordially,
Mick

But that’s as different as Valencia orange is to a Navel. They’re both oranges.

If God has decreed from the beginning that we are going to hell then no amount of praying will change that will it?

So therefore it amounts to the same thing : God as a sovereign power has decreed that our fate is hell.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I kinda works like this, as a debate evolves someone becomes upset. Once that point is reached, the “mind” in now closed and can no longer accept truth. Thus we have the revolving circle here. To change you must honestly believe the other point of view may indeed be valid. Its called accepting a higher knowledge.

Its not contempt, hate or anything else for Calvinism. Its a clear understanding that his thinking, thus certainly his followers are in error.

Many put on great debates about nonsense, which has little to do with truth or correct Biblical interpretation. Great oratorical success leaves unbelievers thinking that the thing they don’t believe has been to powerfully advocated for them to oppose it, and even perhaps suspecting that they are unworthy for thinking there recalcitrant thoughts. Thats an ability of great orators.

Here we have no such situation. The heresy of Calvin is a widly know fact. The remainders of his followers have been unfortunate to have acquired a learned behavior in this area. And that my friend is not easy to overcome. It takes a conscious, rational effort. But you made it here… KUDOS. You found the Path, something must be said for that.

Because here’s a fact for you. Those who truly and honestly believe what they are doing is 100% correct. Don’t come to CAF to debate there point of view. They have little time for that nonsense and are out establishing “their” reality. Be it Calvinism, Paganism whatever. I can assure that had I been a satanist, CAF would have been the LAST stop on earth for me. For what reason? To preach to the believers?

Those who don’t think they have a problem, don’t think they need help. Its like telling the Drug Addict he needs Rehab. His response is, “Rehab is for those who think they need help, I “LIKE” what I’m doing!” Thus we arrive at you here on this forum.

Not by accident you’ve arrived, obviously you see an error in your own thinking or you wouldn’t be here? Certainly you haven’t arrived to debate a religion that dates directly to Peter and Christ. BTW Ignatius of Antioch wrote the words Catholic Church in 104-AD. His 7-letters are in the Vatican, so you 400AD thinking hold no water. Before they fed him to the Lions [Ignatius] in Rome he left the disciples his letters. So the Church and its structure was well established before 104. The Gospel of the Hebrews which was preached in Hippo, Alexandria, Cathage and Rome was well written about and the writtings exist also where its mentioned. But at last thats a debate for another day and another thread.

Predestination at the bottom line is a concept taken by Calvin from some of the greatest orators and scholars to come along in Church history, and simply butcher it.

Throwing out single scripture verse’s here without undertstanding how they fit in the context of the chaper is the weakest attempt at a debate that exists on CAF. Simply put. Post the entire Chapter of Scripture and prove your point in how a specific scripture line fits in context to understanding of the Chapter. Then…My friend you will actually be saying something.

So instead of throwing verse around that coincides with Nothing. How about we get to the point and Explain “exactly” how you think Predestination with Calvin works. How about a Summary of Calvins predestination as it applys to Biblical intent?

 

[truid]

In your present state of “election” can you choose between indugling your flesh or God?

Is it essential to beleive in the doctrine you are presenting?
Does one need to beleive in this doctrine to be saved.

No, I don’t believe it is necessary to believe in the doctrine of predestination in order to be saved. The only thing “needed” to be saved is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[truid]

Because the Calvinist view renders God as nothing but a cosmic rapist who forces his love on us and doesn’t give us a choice. He is also a monster in the Calvinist view because he actually creates people simply to throw them into hell at his pleasure.

That is NOT the Gody of Christianity nor is it the God of the Bible - it is a twisted freak of a monster.

**You fail to understand **what the Scriptures say about God and salvation - in CONTEXT. Instead, you cherry-pick verses to create a God that simply does not exist. Salvation is something that is given to us by God and can be lost by US. I have given you ample Scriptural evidence to support this yet you continue to dodge them.
Answer the following verses according to your Calvinist views:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:20-22
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

I realize this is a Catholic message board, but are such attacks against the Calvinist faith really allowed here? Talk about being disrespectful. Let me ask you, WHAT DO YOU CARE? It’s not like we are demanding Catholics believe in the same doctrines. We are simply explaining our point of view and beliefs. And yet, you come on here and attack us! Why? Surely you don’t think that by your attacks you are going to convince a Calvinist to stop believing and embrace Catholicism.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Remain of the topic of the OP please.

…and cease from personal remarks.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;7388920:

Fatalism is the philosophy of people that believe in fate whereas predestination is the belief of those that believe in the sovereignty of God.

Cordially,
Mick

But that’s as different as Valencia orange is to a Navel. They’re both oranges.

If God has decreed from the beginning that we are going to hell then no amount of praying will change that will it?

So therefore it amounts to the same thing : God as a sovereign power has decreed that our fate is hell.

It’s not unreasonable to conclude that it amounts to the same thing if one is on the receiving end i.e. condemned/lost but I think I mentioned that Calvinists draw this distinction after it was suggested that predestination effectively made evangelism redundant. If one is talking about fatalism then evangelism is indeed pointless but I think each Calvinist knows only that he or she is saved. None of them actually know who else is amongst the elect. It is therefore part of each Calvinist’s duty to evangelize in order that he or she can be an instrument of the sovereign God as He draws people to Himself.

That’s my understanding, at least, but I’ll defer to any practicing Calvinist who wishes to correct me.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[benidict]

No, I don’t believe it is necessary to believe in the doctrine of predestination in order to be saved. The only thing “needed” to be saved is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

are you sure truid? i think james would disagree with you, also the apostle paul. but if you insist on believing this…be my guest.

 

[benidict]

No, I don’t believe it is necessary to believe in the doctrine of predestination in order to be saved. The only thing “needed” to be saved is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

truid. it doesnt matter. because if God has already consigned you to hell before you were born, you can believe as hard as you want in the finished work of Christ. his grace may be Sufficient for you. but it certainly wont be Efficient for you. (sound familiar?) i know that calvinist teach assurance of salvation. but how? if you really cannot know if you are one of the elect? its a serious question, that i for one think, needs an answer. id appreciate your thoughts. thank you in advance

 

[Jesuit_Boy_63]

Ilk? Really? You must really hate Calvinists to use such disrespectful language like that. Let me ask you this question. When you were physically born, were you automatically a child of God? Was God your “daddy, Father”?

===================================================

No, not disrespectful but more along the line of deeply concerned that Calvinists and their Ilk go through life with a view of a cold, remote, and vengeful god. My God is by His own description a warm and loving God who tells us to view the Father as Abba or Daddy.

Since our Lord explained to us that there were two great commandments; to love God, and to love our neighbors as ourselves it follows that if I truly wish to know, love, and serve God then I must also love my neighbor. Last time I looked that makes it pretty hard to HATE anybody. So, unless I proclaim myself to be a hypocrite I cannot hate Calvinists but must pray for them that they see God as I believe that God intended us to see Him.

When I was in High School we were often reminded with the challenge that, “when God gave you a brain, do you suppose He had in mind that you do something with it?” It seems to me that all of us human beings have an obligation to seek to know God as far as it is possible for us to know Him. He has given us a pretty good roadmap to follow and I am just trying to follow it.

I recall that God reveals Himself to us as we are capable of understanding Him. He has revealed Himself as a loving God who watches with paternal pride, happiness, and occasional disappointment as we progress along the path towards Him. Free will allows us to disappoint Him, choosing to know, love, and serve Him makes Him a proud papa.

As to your question, you and I became children of God at the moment of conception. Yes, God is our Father, Abba, Daddy!

I strongly suspect and honestly hope that you and I will see each other in Heaven.
Deo gratias, Te Deum laudamus!

Oro pro Societas!

 

[benidict]

===================================================

No, not disrespectful but more along the line of deeply concerned that Calvinists and their Ilk go through life with a view of a cold, remote, and vengeful god. My God is by His own description a warm and loving God who tells us to view the Father as Abba or Daddy.

Since our Lord explained to us that there were two great commandments; to love God, and to love our neighbors as ourselves it follows that if I truly wish to know, love, and serve God then I must also love my neighbor. Last time I looked that makes it pretty hard to HATE anybody. So, unless I proclaim myself to be a hypocrite I cannot hate Calvinists but must pray for them that they see God as I believe that God intended us to see Him.

When I was in High School we were often reminded with the challenge that, “when God gave you a brain, do you suppose He had in mind that you do something with it?” It seems to me that all of us human beings have an obligation to seek to know God as far as it is possible for us to know Him. He has given us a pretty good roadmap to follow and I am just trying to follow it.

I recall that God reveals Himself to us as we are capable of understanding Him. He has revealed Himself as a loving God who watches with paternal pride, happiness, and occasional disappointment as we progress along the path towards Him. Free will allows us to disappoint Him, choosing to know, love, and serve Him makes Him a proud papa.

As to your question, you and I became children of God at the moment of conception. Yes, God is our Father, Abba, Daddy!

I strongly suspect and honestly hope that you and I will see each other in Heaven.
Deo gratias, Te Deum laudamus!

Oro pro Societas!

you dont know how correct you are my brother. have you ever heard of the dutch reformed? to them, the more depressed you are, the better. im not saying this to be funny. its tragic. i knew a family from this background. Calvinistic to the hilt! and they do view God as a cold remote and vengeful being. one of their children. joined the reformed baptist congregation i used to be part of. i remember after his baptism, he told me; " i only hope im not deceiving myself…" he even became a pastor in the church. until…he started studying the Church fathers, and started coming to other conclusions. its weird. i had left the church years ahead of him, and was looking seriously into Judaism. i no longer believed the new testament. until i had several events happen that i wont go into here. long story short. he converted to Anglicanism, part of his heritage being british. otherwise he would have become Catholic. i studied the Church fathers, came to many of the same conclusions he did, and… i converted to Catholicism. when i converse with him from time to time, it is amazing how similar our views are. and no…he is no longer a calvinist. he has his own parish in texas, has a wonderful wife, kids, and couldnt be happier. with what is going on between the Catholics and Anglicans, i think one day, he could very well join us. Peace to you, and a blessed Christmas. thank you for your knowledge. it is awesome. and thank God for the Jesuites!