Predestination/Calvinism

[elvisman]

No, I don’t believe it is necessary to believe in the doctrine of predestination in order to be saved. The only thing “needed” to be saved is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

**That’s funny - that’s not what the Bible says. A simple intellectual ascent is NOT enough. James 2:19 tells us that even the demons believe and tremble. Are they saved? ****Nope. The Bible tells us there is MUCH more we must do to be saved. **
Here are a few things:

What does “believing in the Lord Jesus” entail?
**- Being baptized (**Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, ****Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)

**- Picking up our cross daily to follow him **(Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)

- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46,** Luke 18:22**)

- Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)

- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)

- Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)

**- We must suffer with Christ **(Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Believing is just the beginning, friend.
Enduring in faithfulness is what counts.

 

[elvisman]

truid. it doesnt matter. because if God has already consigned you to hell before you were born, you can believe as hard as you want in the finished work of Christ. his grace may be Sufficient for you. but it certainly wont be Efficient for you. (sound familiar?) i know that calvinist teach assurance of salvation. but how? if you really cannot know if you are one of the elect? its a serious question, that i for one think, needs an answer. id appreciate your thoughts. thank you in advance

Great point.

 

[PRmerger]

The only thing “needed” to be saved is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

This, truid, is contrary to Scripture.

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:19[/BIBLEDRB]

This is what the Scriptures say we are saved by:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

 

[JustaServant]

Calvinism, like it’s less-mannered younger sister fundamentalism, becomes isolationist and confrontational in attitude. In short, it can easily become an intellectual cult.
The unraveling of it for me came from simply viewing the Bible passages they often quote. Calvinists believe in “Limited atonement”. Calvinists believe the atonement is limited for some men but not for all. They claim Christ died only for the elect. To prove this they cite verses which seem to indicate that.
But for me, it seemed what they were doing was making the Scripture fit their view instead of the other way around.
The Bible states that Christ died for all men. John 4:42 describes Christ as “the Savior of the world,” and 1 John 2:2 states that Christ “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” 1 Timothy 4:10 describes God as “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.”
To split hairs and say “world” doesn’t really mean “world” is simply intellectual dishonesty.
In going to the cross, Christ intended to make salvation possible for all men, but he did not intend to make salvation actual for all men, otherwise we would have to say that Christ went to the cross intending that all men would end up in heaven. This is clearly not the case. God does desire the salvation of all men. 1 Timothy 2:4 states God "desires **all men **to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Some Calvinists teach the doctrine of “double-predestination.” This teaching claims that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also elects others to damnation. They tend to take certain scripture verses out of context to prove their ideas. This is simply not the God of the Bible, nor the God that I know.
God’s omniscience is one of His attributes. It is indeed true that God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. God’s omniscience does not interfere with human free will to choose. God knows what our ultimate choice for heaven or hell will be but he does not determine that choice. Our choices are our own.
There are many things about the TULIP I agree with, but overall, much of Calvinism simply makes little Biblical sense.

 

[jericho777]

But ask yourself this

If our wills are bound by the nature we posses, then who created our nature?

Our birth nature comes from original sin. We receive our heavenly nature when we are born again.

 

[Nicea325]

No, I don’t believe it is necessary to believe in the doctrine of predestination in order to be saved. The only thing “needed” to be saved is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Aaahhh…no! The belief the ONLY thing needed to be saved is to believe is called picking and choosing. I call it convenience. It goes a lot further and deeper. I believe in getting a pay check every two weeks for working my tail off,but if I do not do my part and share,I doubt a check will come forth.

 

[fbl9]

In your present state of “election” can you choose between indugling your flesh or God?

Is it essential to beleive in the doctrine you are presenting?
Does one need to beleive in this doctrine to be saved.

Thank you for your response to the second part truid . How about the other one.

Since being born again have you sinned? Or is it impossible for you to sin?
This question is open to you too Jericho777

 

[jericho777]

Well no, completely wrong.

Re-read that verse and show me where in that verse, it is written that in choosing Jacob God is saving him and taking him to even, and that God is sending Essau to hell by not preferring him.

I await your response.

As you see Esau’s life was in the flesh not the Spirit. Hope this helps.

Hebrews 12: 16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

[PRmerger]

Our birth nature comes from original sin. We receive our heavenly nature when we are born again.

Yes! And we are born again at baptism!

 

[truid]

Thank you. I am glad you like it and you can use it.

Since you obviously agree with me that there are no loaded questions if you have a good defense, then would you care to answer JustaServants questions

I know he addressed this to Jericho, but since you commented maybe you have an answer?

Here is the question: “Do you believe God hates the “non-elect”?”

Here is my answer. No. I do not believe God hates the “non-elect”. Personally, I don’t think God is controlled by emotions. “hate” is just a another man-made word some ascribe to God. “God hates this and God hates that.” Not the message I preach. I find the “God is love” message much more convincing.

 

[truid]

Hey great question.

1. So I ask you do you believe God is Love? John says He is.
2. If you believe no 1, then how come a God who is love, creates people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell?

Yes. God is love.

No, God did not create people just for the “sole purpose of sending them to hell”. Hell (or the Lake of Fire) was created for Satan and his angels.

Do you believe in second chances? That if a person dies, they get a second chance to redeem themselves and be “saved”?

 

[cooterhein]

Truid! Good, looks like you’re on. I’m trying to send you a PM in order to avoid cluttering an already-pretty-busy thread, but your PM folder is full. Can you delete a couple of things so I can send that?

Just give me a quick reply when you see this. I’ll be watching this thread. Thanks!

 

[truid]

You know what? When Calvinists cite these passages as proof text for predestination, it really shows that either a) they don’t understand the Bible or b) they just don’t think when they read the Bbile because they come to all sorts of ludicrous conclusions.

Now let us have the full text here so we know what we are talking about
’Romans 9:16-24
16 So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18 Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”
20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22 What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23 This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,**
24 namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.
**
Now I want you to read those verses maybe two or three times and then answer these questions"

1. Where does it say in the above verses that God damns any one to salvation? I read it so many times and I can not find even a hint of an allusion to it.
2. Where does it say that God, from the beginning created human beings and even before they were created had determined that they will be damned.

For the record, I don’t believe in double predestination. I believe God has a plan and a purpose for certain individuals (as evidenced in the Bible). Some times, God uses groups of people (as opposed to individuals) to accomplish His will. Like I said before, man has a very limited point of view. God, otoh, has the clearest perspective of all. I will trust Him and take Him at His Word.

 

[jericho777]

Thank you for your response to the second part truid . How about the other one.

Since being born again have you sinned? Or is it impossible for you to sin?
This question is open to you too Jericho777

I’m not upto speed as I have worked OT and there’s about 60-80 posts since I logged out. I’m just trying to catch up. But I’ll give it a try.

First belief in this doctrine is NOT necessary for salvation. This is a question of mechanics.

Yes I have sinned. Paul even admitted he was a sinner after being born again. But we now have an advocate with the Father interceding for us. We are also sons by adoption. We have an intimate relationship with God that was impossible before our adoption. God correct us as His children with love. Our righteousness is imputed to us from Christ.

 

[truid]

No. What is evident in the Calvinistic view of predestination is the short supply of logic and rational thought.

I have raised this question before many times in several different threads.

Now perhaps you will be one who can finally answer this and perhaps maybe show that Calvininism (as I would call presdestination) is not a ridiculous ism.

These are the things we know about God from the Bible.

First, We all know that God is the only Creator so therefore He created all of us.No. Not in the literal sense. God did not create you, nor did God create me. God created Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve procreated their children, and their children procreated theirs, and so on and so forth. I will admit that God has intervened in the birth of certain people (according to the Bible). But that in no way proves He is intimately involved in our personal creation. Otherwise, God is guilty of creating some pretty horrible monsters such as Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Che Guevera, etc. etc.

benedictus2:

Second. We say that God is merciful.

Yes, God is merciful.

benedictus2:

Third. We also say that God is just.

Yes. God is Just.

benedictus2:

Fourth. We also say that God is love.

Yes. God is love.

benedictus2:

Now that we have all these laid out, how can we say that God is both Love and Just if being the only Creator, He creates human beings just for the sole purpose of sending them to hell?

That argument only works if you ASSUME God personally created each and every human being ever born on this planet. I, for one, do not believe God is responsible for creating evil human beings (such as Hitler and his ilk).

benedictus2:

Let me show you what the equivalent of that is in terms of human parenthood.

You have a couple who decides they will have ten children.

Even before they conceive, they have determined that once baby 1, 3, 5,7, and 9 comes out, they will love them so totally and will see that they have everything that they could possibly give them.

But they have also determined (even before conception) that babies 2,4,6,8 and 10 they will have, and torture for as long as they shall live. They are already imagining the various ways of inflicting pain and suffering on these children when they finally say “Hello World”.

No matter how you may twist, turn, flip, twirl Calvinistic explanation of predestination, that is what it amounts to.

Nope. That argument ONLY works if both parties agree that God created ALL of the human race (each and every person). I don’t believe He did. What an evil and cruel God He must be to create an entire race of people, only to have the Israelites slaughter and basically wipe them off the face of the earth. Isn’t that called Genocide? Yeah, God loves a little genocide in the morning!

benedictus2:

So therefore you are left with a schizophrenic, murderous, psychotic god.

That’s right! That’s what you have if you believe God personally created each and every single human being ever born on this planet! Glad you see it my way!

benedictus2:

The final part you need to explain as well is how do you reconcile that with the God of the Bible who came and died on the cross that all may have eternal life.

Jesus came to seek and save His sheep. He left the 99 to find the 1. Remember that parable. These were HIS sheep. Not someone elses. Jesus came to die on the cross for His sheep (the elect). Not for Hitler, not for rapists, murderers, child molesters, false prophets/teachers. And certainly not for the anti-Christ. But according to you, Jesus died on the cross for their sins too. No, I don’t believe so.

 

[truid]

I wish I had time this morning to go back and read all the posts, so if he did he’ll have to re-post it.
Jesus said “For God so loved the WORLD…” Not just the ‘elect’.

Look up the word “world” (as used in John 3:16) in a Lexicon. Kosmos can refer to a specific group of people and does not always mean “every single person in the world” as you are interpreting this word.

 

[PRmerger]

Here is the question: “Do you believe God hates the “non-elect”?”

Here is my answer. No. I do not believe God hates the “non-elect”. Personally, I don’t think God is controlled by emotions. “hate” is just a another man-made word some ascribe to God. “God hates this and God hates that.” Not the message I preach. I find the “God is love” message much more convincing.

Why are you ascribing “hate” to be a man-made word ascribed to God, but love is not? Are they not both emotions?

 

[PRmerger]

Look up the word “world” (as used in John 3:16) in a Lexicon. Kosmos can refer to a specific group of people and does not always mean “every single person in the world” as you are interpreting this word.

Can you provide an example from Scripture where Kosmos refers to a specific group of people?

 

[truid]

Why are you ascribing “hate” to be a man-made word ascribed to God, but love is not? Are they not both emotions?

No. Man has made “love” into an emotion. But the word is Agape, unconditional love. That is more than just a fleeting emotion. It is enduring and everlasting, eternal, just as God is. Because God is love. Hate, otoh, is not eternal. It is only temporary, like our emotions. God does not change, unlike our emotions which change all the time.

 

[jericho777]

This is a man-made tradition, jericho, for you have not read in a single page of Scripture that Pharaoh is in hell.

In fact, you cannot name a single person, from any page in Scripture, that is definitively in hell.

What you have done is added your man-made tradition to Scripture.

Interesting.

What do you make of Paul then? “But then persued them to kill them”

The rich man from Luke 16:16-31is in hell.

Your second question is not clear.