Predestination/Calvinism

[jericho777]

**Ay, ay, ay . . . **
Jericho - first of all - you never answered my post #91 where I pretty much smashed your positions on predestination and eternity to bits.

Secondly, your argument about grace here is silly. First of all, God’s grace is a gift - right? We can agree on that. IF it is a gift, then it CAN be rejected - otherwise it’s *not *a gift. It becomes a sentence from which we cannot escape. God doesn’t force himself on us like a rapist.

As I told you back in post #44 - 1 Cor. 3:9 tells us that as co-workers (Sunergos) with God, we cooperate with his grace - plain and simple.

Finally - my Calvinist siblings tell me all the time that you MUST accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Tell me something - if I am predestined for salvation - WHY would I have to accept him if he has already accepted me?

I ignored your post #91 because I am not here to argue and fight. Sometimes it is just better to say nothing.

Just as sin is irresistible in our old nature, we are compelled to sin as you well know. Do you complain about having a sin nature forced on you “like a rapist “(your words). As scripture says you were incapable of choosing God because you were dead in your sin and trespass. With our new nature we have irresistible grace, grace that allows us to be sons and daughters of God. His Spirit controls us. Rom 8:9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.

It is for our benefit. God knows who will be eventually be saved so why do we still have to live life? Why did He have to create people who eventually go to hell? That’s how God set it up.

 

[jericho777]

**Do you believe that Jesus redeemed ALL **of mankind throughout history?

Short answer no. If Jesus death provided redemption for all then all would be in heaven. If people He redeemed then go to hell then His redemption was not sufficient to save them. Or His death was in vein and for not according to your belief. His sacrifice is greater than anyone will ever know and cost more than we can comprehend. I will reiterate it again, salvation is the work of God not man.

 

[jericho777]

The idea of God and prestination used in the same sentance can only be true if it ends with the understanding that this idea, this concept is literally an impossibility for God. WHY?

1. Because God is perfect
2. Because God is and MUST be Just **READ: 1 Jn. 1: 8-10, 1 J. 5: 16-17 and John 20:19-23.] **
3. Becaue it denies the way God Created humanity and the precise use of humanities [and only humanities] SPIRTUAL gifts of mind, intellect, frewill AND soul. These gifts can be shown to exist, but are not quantifiable, becaue they, like God Himself are Spiritual.
4. God in Divine Justice cannot give us a freewill, and then prohibit us from using it. Imposible logic and Theology.
5. God is either ALWAYS good and JUST; or God does not exist.

Love and prayers,
Pat

You fail to recognize there are two wills present in the human condition. Rom 8:5-11 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful mane is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mindf is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Your freewill is dictated by the nature you posses. We do have freewill. Remember you can’t choose God unless He first reveals Himself to you. Mat 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,b the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

How did Peter know Jesus was God? It is only God who can reveal Himself to you and redeem you. We can’t find Him on our own.
God owes salvation to no man. Because He is Holy He cannot tolerate sin. Because He is just He must judge sin and a price must be paid. Because He is merciful He chooses to save some.

 

[SyCarl]

The idea of God and prestination used in the same sentance can only be true if it ends with the understanding that this idea, this concept is literally an impossibility for God. WHY?

Well Paul uses them together in Ephesians.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ: As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us, in his beloved son.
(Eph 1:3-6 DRB)

In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will. That we may be unto the praise of his glory: we who before hoped in Christ: In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation), in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise.
(Eph 1:11-13 DRB)

1. Because God is perfect
2. Because God is and MUST be Just **READ: 1 Jn. 1: 8-10, 1 J. 5: 16-17 and John 20:19-23.] **
3. Becaue it denies the way God Created humanity and the precise use of humanities [and only humanities] SPIRTUAL gifts of mind, intellect, frewill AND soul. These gifts can be shown to exist, but are not quantifiable, becaue they, like God Himself are Spiritual.
4. God in Divine Justice cannot give us a freewill, and then prohibit us from using it. Imposible logic and Theology.
5. God is either ALWAYS good and JUST; or God does not exist.

Love and prayers,
Pat

You are making a number of assumptions such as being able to judge God’s justice by human standards.

I would be very wary of putting limits on what God can do. Jesus tells us that what is impossible for us is possible for God. I am perfectly content to accept that God can predestine and still give us freewill. I don’t know how but then I don’t need to know if I trust God.

Wanting to know everything has been the source of man’s downfall right from the beginning. From what tree did Adam and Eve eat in Eden? The tree of knowledge. And we still feel we have the right to know everything and are divided because of it.

 

[fbl9]

You fail to recognize there are two wills present in the human condition. Rom 8:5-11 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful mane is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mindf is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Your freewill is dictated by the nature you posses. We do have freewill. Remember you can’t choose God unless He first reveals Himself to you. Mat 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,b the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

How did Peter know Jesus was God? It is only God who can reveal Himself to you and redeem you. We can’t find Him on our own.
God owes salvation to no man. Because He is Holy He cannot tolerate sin. Because He is just He must judge sin and a price must be paid. Because He is merciful He chooses to save some.

But do you sin on ocassion?

 

[Cruxis117]

How did Peter know Jesus was God? It is only God who can reveal Himself to you and redeem you. We can’t find Him on our own.
God owes salvation to no man. Because He is Holy He cannot tolerate sin. Because He is just He must judge sin and a price must be paid. Because He is merciful He chooses to save some.

While I agree that God “owes” nothing to us, and that he cannot tolerate sin, I disagree with the statement “He chooses to save some”. This is because of this:

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

God does not choose to save some, but wants to save all. However, as you have correctly stated, we have the free will to reject this gift of grace and to reject God.

 

[jericho777]

But do you sin on ocassion?

I have answered that in a previous post.

 

[jericho777]

While I agree that God “owes” nothing to us, and that he cannot tolerate sin, I disagree with the statement “He chooses to save some”. This is because of this:

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

God does not choose to save some, but wants to save all. However, as you have correctly stated, we have the free will to reject this gift of grace and to reject God.

So you believe that an all powerful God is in capable of doing what He wants?

 

[Cruxis117]

So you believe that an all powerful God is in capable of doing what He wants?

Where have I stated this? I’ve merely stated the facts. That God wants all to come to knowledge of the truth, as stated, as well as the fact that you’ve agreed upon in your previous post, that we are still able to reject God. This is evident in Hebrews 10:26-29:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think those deserve to be punished who have trampled the Son of God underfoot, who have treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who have insulted the Spirit of grace?

It is clear that God wants to save all of us. However, we can recieve the knowledge of the truth, and ultimately deliberately reject it by sinning. Our free will is still in effect, even when the Holy Spirit enters us. This is a rather clear statement, one which shatters Calvinistic theology, for why would Paul warn the Hebrews what would happen if they recieved the truth and continued to sin, if it is impossible to reject God’s grace?

God is not incapable of doing what he wants, he is doing exactly what he wants. By respecting our free will, but also by sending his only Son to die for your sins and for mine.

 

[jericho777]

Where have I stated this? I’ve merely stated the facts. That God wants all to come to knowledge of the truth, as stated, as well as the fact that you’ve agreed upon in your previous post, that we are still able to reject God. This is evident in Hebrews 10:26-29:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think those deserve to be punished who have trampled the Son of God underfoot, who have treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who have insulted the Spirit of grace?

It is clear that God wants to save all of us. However, we can recieve the knowledge of the truth, and ultimately deliberately reject it by sinning. Our free will is still in effect, even when the Holy Spirit enters us. This is a rather clear statement, one which shatters Calvinistic theology, for why would Paul warn the Hebrews what would happen if they recieved the truth and continued to sin, if it is impossible to reject God’s grace?

God is not incapable of doing what he wants, he is doing exactly what he wants. By respecting our free will, but also by sending his only Son to die for your sins and for mine.

God also takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. But I believe by His sovereign will He chooses to save some.

All believers continue to sin after conversion. Paul confirms this. The Hoy Spirit convicts of sin to bring us to repentence.

You have neglected to recognize there are two wills present in humans as stated in Rom 8:5-11in which freewill is bound by the natures we posses.

 

[elvisman]

Short answer no. If Jesus death provided redemption for all then all would be in heaven. If people He redeemed then go to hell then His redemption was not sufficient to save them. Or His death was in vein and for not according to your belief. His sacrifice is greater than anyone will ever know and cost more than we can comprehend. I will reiterate it again, salvation is the work of God not man.

And that’s EXACTLY what I thought you’d say because you simply do NOT understand Redemption and Salvation.

By his finished work on the cross - Jesus redeemed EVERYBODY who ever lived and ever WILL live.

Redemption is NOT Salvation. Redemption simply means that we have all been paid for. the Greek word used in John 19:28 is Tetelestai - It IS FINISHED. It’s like getting your bottles redeemd for cash at the recycling center.

Salvation is offered to all but not all take the gift. 1 Tim. 2:4 tells us that God wills the salvation of ALL - but his will is not always done. We must cooperate with his will for it to be done in us. John 3:16 tells us that God LOVED the world so much that he sent his only son and and whoever believes in him shall have eternal life. GOD LOVED THE WORLD.
NOWHERE does it say that only those whom he chooses will have everlasting life. It says WHOEVER believes in his son.

**You’ve rejected all of the other Biblical evidence that smashes Calvinism to pieces. **How do you reconcile your beliefs with these 2 Biblical passages?

 

[elvisman]

I ignored your post #91 because I am not here to argue and fight. Sometimes it is just better to say nothing.

No Jericho - you avoided the evidence because it is overwhelming.

For Calvinists, it is sometimes better to say nothing because there is NO getting around the evidence in light of this man-made doctrine.

Here is the text of post #91. Please address the Biblical evidence. Truid attempted and failed:**

**Your folly lies in your total lack of understanding of eternity. **

First of all, using plain and simple logic, total predestination is a false doctrine based solely on the instructions of Jesus to spread the gospel message around the world and to Baptize all in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19-20). Using your logic (and Calvin’s), spreading the Gospel message is completely pointless. Those who are predestined don’t need to hear from you or me - they already have salvation.
Do you see how ridiculous this notion is?

Now, for a lesson on eternity. The language used in Scripture about predestination has to do with how God sees things. He doesn’t see things like you or me, who can only see what we’ve done in the past. He sees everything SIMULTANEOUSLY. Our entire span of time is like a finished painting. God sees every choice we’ve made and are going to make and that’s what the Scripture writers are referrng to.

That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t preordain SOME events and situations. What God DOESN’T do is coerce us to be faithful or to remain that way. That is totally up to us and here are some verses to prove what I’m saying, while keeping the CONTEXT of Scripture. Remember, no matter how hard the Calvinist tries - you cannot make Scripture contradict itself:
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:20-22
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

1 Cor. 4:4
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me."

Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46
"He who endures to the end will be saved"

Matthew 10:22
**All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. **

2 Peter 3:17
**Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. **

Revelation 3:5
**He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. **
**(God cannot blot out what was never there, Jericho)

Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
(Again, Jericho - God CAN take away a person’s Heavenly rewards).

 

[Cruxis117]

God also takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. But I believe by His sovereign will He chooses to save some.

All believers continue to sin after conversion. Paul confirms this. The Hoy Spirit convicts of sin to bring us to repentence.

You have neglected to recognize there are two wills present in humans as stated in Rom 8:5-11in which freewill is bound by the natures we posses.

I have not neglected to remember any such thing. While I again agree that believers are able to still sin, and that yes, we have flesh and we have spirit, which does present two different wills, we also continue to remember that by God’s Sovereign will, he wishes to save all, as stated in previous posts. However, many can still reject the gift that God has given them (grace) and ultimately reject God. I believe that God does not predestine people to be saved or damned, but that we are all able to be reconciled, provided that we “continue securely established and steadfast in the faith” (Colossians 1:21-23).

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Yes this before Jesus led captivity captive to heaven. There are two places mentioned. You fail to realize there was a gulf fixed between the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was in total agony and longed for just a drop of water from the finger of Lazarus. He was tormented in the presence of the joyful state of Abraham’s bosom. When he asked father Abraham if he could just warn his brothers about this place father Abraham replied. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
It is clear this is a place of eternal torment where there is no release from.

Actually, I’ve heard a pretty good argument for the rich man being in purgatory based on the fact that hell is the privation of all good, which means that those in hell hate themselves and everyone else. The rich man wouldn’t care one wit about his brothers if he were in hell, but if he were in purgatory…

Just a thought.

 

[fbl9]

I’m not upto speed as I have worked OT and there’s about 60-80 posts since I logged out. I’m just trying to catch up. But I’ll give it a try.

First belief in this doctrine is NOT necessary for salvation. This is a question of mechanics.

Yes I have sinned. Paul even admitted he was a sinner after being born again. But we now have an advocate with the Father interceding for us. We are also sons by adoption. We have an intimate relationship with God that was impossible before our adoption. God correct us as His children with love. Our righteousness is imputed to us from Christ.

found it.thanks for your patience Jericho777.

 

[fbl9]

You fail to recognize there are two wills present in the human condition. Rom 8:5-11 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful mane is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mindf is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Your freewill is dictated by the nature you posses. We do have freewill. Remember you can’t choose God unless He first reveals Himself to you. Mat 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,b the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

How did Peter know Jesus was God? It is only God who can reveal Himself to you and redeem you. We can’t find Him on our own.
God owes salvation to no man. Because He is Holy He cannot tolerate sin. Because He is just He must judge sin and a price must be paid. Because He is merciful He chooses to save some.

I ignored your post #91 because I am not here to argue and fight. Sometimes it is just better to say nothing.

Just as sin is irresistible in our old nature, we are compelled to sin as you well know. Do you complain about having a sin nature forced on you “like a rapist “(your words). As scripture says you were incapable of choosing God because you were dead in your sin and trespass. With our new nature we have irresistible grace, grace that allows us to be sons and daughters of God. His Spirit controls us. Rom 8:9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.

It is for our benefit. God knows who will be eventually be saved so why do we still have to live life? Why did He have to create people who eventually go to hell? That’s how God set it up.

found it.thanks for your patience Jericho777.

Yet you still sin despite the fact that your will is now controlled by God.

All sin is equal in God’s eyes.

So one still has the free will to sin.Or not to sin. the choice is ours not God’s.
I see Jeff fall from a 20 story building, i know he will be dead when he hits the ground did my knowing jeff would be dead cause his death? How can God’s knowing be the cause?

 

[fbl9]

Actually, I’ve heard a pretty good argument for the rich man being in purgatory based on the fact that hell is the privation of all good, which means that those in hell hate themselves and everyone else. The rich man wouldn’t care one wit about his brothers if he were in hell, but if he were in purgatory…

Just a thought.

Why would any one want to cross over from “heaven” to hell"
St.Luke 16:26 “…so that they who wish to pass over from this side can to you cannot…”

 

[PRmerger]

Pharaoh was in the act of committing a mortal sin when he died. Is that sufficient enough for you?

I appreciate your trying to use Catholic language, but you still are not understanding Catholic teaching.

Being “in the act of committing a mortal sin” when one dies is not sufficient for our condemnation of a person to hell.

As the great saint, John Vianney responded, when asked whether we could definitively say that a man who jumped off a bridge in an act of suicide (a mortal sin) was in hell: we do not know. For the man could have repented between the moment he jumped off the bridge and his feet hit the water.

Paul was called according to God’s purpose. We know God’s redemptive work in the life of Paul.

Works do not save us, jericho.

 

[benedictus2]

It actually is. That’s why I brought it up about a dozen times.

Nope. Just because you brought it up a dozen times does not make it so, **since you are not the sole determiner of what is and what is not. **That really smacks of arrogance and meeism. Which of course is not surprising.

You know what, you sounded like the authoritarian Luther then. It is so because I said so.

Jimmy Akin and Scott Hahn are two examples of Catholics who used to be Calvinists. They’re also two examples of people who seem to have gotten away from that pretty cleanly. Both of them go into great detail about their conversion experiences. If you can show me where either of them say “if we’d used rational thinking and logic, that is the kind of god we’d have come up with,” I will retract this. Until then, I respectfully disagree.

You know what, you don’t like it when a statement is called stupid and illogical but that one certainly takes the price in illogical and ill thought category.
Here are the glaring flaws in your statement.
**
First.** Just because someone who used to be Calvinist did not mention a major flaw in Calvinism does not mean that the flaw is not there.

**Second. **It is extremely illogical to rebut a proposition with the reasoning that a former adherent to a belief did not dispute certain aspects of that belief for the simple reason that they no longer hold that belief which means that they must hold that belief false.

**Third. ** Scott and Akin I would say are very intelligent men. If Calvinism is an intelligent position to hold, then the fact that these two intelligent men are no longer Calvinists speak volumes.

Fourth. When you debate, rebuttal consists in refuting my statement with a counter argument that disproves what I say and not through an appeal to persons who no longer believe what you are defending.

How about “pulling a Benedictus”? We could start using that one.

We could. Except that it would not be apt because my statements are logical. Yours are not. So more properly it should be called “pulling a cooterheim”.

Except, of course, the conclusions of every Catholic convert from Calvinism that has made any sort of contribution to this site. The ones that address the issue directly (ie., articles to the effect of “This is how Catholics should talk to Calvinists”) are geared toward helping you not do what you’ve been doing.

Well, how about asking those former Calvinists what they think of the flaw I am presenting here. You are** assuming **that they do not see it. You do not know it for a fact. If they do not see the problem, then they should be able to explain away the quandary don’t you think?

 

[PRmerger]

**Third. ** Scott and Akin I would say are very intelligent men. If Calvinism is an intelligent position to hold, then the fact that these two intelligent men are no longer Calvinists speak volumes.

Yes. This is indeed curious. What would possess anyone to use ex-Calvinists–those who clearly REJECT the doctrine–as a means of supporting one’s position. :whacky:

As Mark Shea states: “the good things in Calvinism are the things it retains from the Catholic Tradition, while the evil and destructive things in Calvinism are, well, the Calvinism.”