Predestination/Calvinism

[fbl9]

The difference is those whom the Spirit is not controlling cannot stop sinning. They are dead in their sin and trespass. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

Rom 8:29-30 For those whom He has known beforehand He has also pre-destined to bear the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Eldest in a vast family of brothers; ***and those whom He has pre-destined He also has called; and those whom He has called He has also declared free from guilt; and those whom He has declared free from guilt He has also crowned with glory. ***

God will not let those He has predestined to be lost. Prov.24:16 for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again,
but the wicked are brought down by calamity.

Seven is the number of completion which means he falls completely but rises up. The wicked cannot rise up.

If you still sin then you can not stop sinning thus the Spirit is not in control of you.Or are you trying to say with the bolded versees that even though you still sin you are not guilty of sin?Have you sinned more than seven times?

 

[fbl9]

It is interesting you are relying on Gods mercy to save Pharaoh after his death as with infants and unborn children. That would make salvation totally based on God’s choice and not mans. Sounds like Calvinism to me.

What you are forgetting here Jericho is these persons have yet to had a chance to hear Christ.In regards to the OT people. When Paraoh heard Christ’s message do you know if he rejected it or not? No you don’t because you weren’t there.

 

[GaryTaylor]

There is no release from hell it is eternal. Abraham makes it clear that there is no exit from his destination.

Yes, this is abundantly clear. I agree.

 

[Sufjon]

You got that all backwards. What I said was “It is. That’s why I brought it up a dozen times.” What you seem to have heard was “I brought it up a dozen times. That’s why it is.” Do you see the difference?

You know I’m laughing, because I said no such thing. But that’s entirely beside the point, and talking about these kinds of things with you is a giant waste of time.

Here’s a thought. What if I demonstrate that there are no well-respected Catholic apologists of the formerly Calvinist variety who give an ounce of credence to the “monstrous Calvinist god” argument? You’d have to wait a few days, but I can do it with one phone call. You up for it? I can do this on January 6th.

I happen to think it makes a lot of sense to assume that you have a certain amount of respect for people like Jimmy Akin and Scott Hahn, and if Jimmy Akin literally tells you something is a very bad idea and you should stop doing it, you will listen to him.

There are equally intelligent men on both sides of the aisle, but yes, Hahn and Akin are two such men that are on your side. You should be proud of them.

I know what you’re trying to do, and you’ll find very little success. I will do this my way, and it’s happening on the afternoon of January 6th.

I’m a results-oriented person. I’m not going to waste valuable hours this close to Christmas arguing with someone that isn’t willing to respect anything I say. Instead, I’ll wait a couple of weeks and go with an easier approach that’s also very effective.

That’s a fair point. And that is exactly what I’ll do. We’ll know for sure on the 6th. I already have a pretty good idea of what’s going to happen, but this way you’ll know too.

I’m confused - what’s happening on January 6th?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[jericho777]

If you still sin then you can not stop sinning thus the Spirit is not in control of you.Or are you trying to say with the bolded versees that even though you still sin you are not guilty of sin?Have you sinned more than seven times?

As I pointed out in the Rom 8:29-30 passage it is God doing the work of salvation in the life of the believer. The flesh is constantly warring against the Spirit as Paul has pointed out. We are declared free from guilt by Christ’s finished work on the cross. Rom 8:1-4Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

It is the new nature imparted to the believer that is a witness to God’s love and faithfulness. It is the Spirit working in through this nature that brings us home. There is no condemnation because we are justified by God.

Seven is not a specific number it represents totally and completely. The wicked never rise.

 

[jericho777]

i would have to agree with you on this. Peace, and my you and yours have a Blessed Christmas season.

Same to you also and stay safe my brother.

 

[PRmerger]

It is interesting you are relying on Gods mercy to save Pharaoh after his death as with infants and unborn children. That would make salvation totally based on God’s choice and not mans. Sounds like Calvinism to me.

Like most Catholic answers, it’s not either/or, but both/and. Not God’s choice or man’s, but God’s choice AND man’s.

God’s mercy abounds and extended to Pharaoh, to be sure, but Pharaoh had to DO something in order to be saved–he had to say Yes.

 

[PRmerger]

There is no release from hell it is eternal.

Yes. This is very Catholic of you to say, jericho!

Abraham makes it clear that there is no exit from his destination.

Could you please cite the verse that states this?

 

[PRmerger]

Inside Calvinism, why does God predestine people to hell? Does the God of the Calvinists have an arbitrary rule that not everybody can be saved so therefore some have to be damned?

Indeed.

However, I would say that the Calvinist answer to this lies in God’s supreme sovereignty. He can be arbitrary if he so chooses, for he is God.

 

[jericho777]

What you are forgetting here Jericho is these persons have yet to had a chance to hear Christ.In regards to the OT people. When Paraoh heard Christ’s message do you know if he rejected it or not? No you don’t because you weren’t there.

Yes but you are relying on God’s mercy alone to deliver the unborn by His sovereign grace. It is therefore His choice wetther or not they will be saved.

By the context presented in scripture Pharaoh’s end is eternal destruction.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes but you are relying on God’s mercy alone to deliver the unborn by His sovereign grace. It is therefore His choice wetther or not they will be saved.

No. The CC does not state it’s God’s mercy alone that may deliver the unborn. It may be necessary for the babe’s immortal soul to choose to accept or reject this mercy, just as God offered this choice to the angels at the beginning of time.

By the context presented in scripture Pharaoh’s end is eternal destruction.

This is clearly a most egregious adding to Scripture.

 

[jericho777]

Like most Catholic answers, it’s not either/or, but both/and. Not God’s choice or man’s, but God’s choice AND man’s.

God’s mercy abounds and extended to Pharaoh, to be sure, but Pharaoh had to DO something in order to be saved–he had to say Yes.

Those who have the Spirit have the the new nature. They belong to God. Those with the old nature cannot say yes to God. And you can’t say yes unless God allows you to.

 

[PRmerger]

Those who have the Spirit have the the new nature.

Yes.

They belong to God.

Yes.

Those with the old nature cannot say yes to God.

Why can’t they?

And you can’t say yes unless God allows you to.

Well, in one sense, yes. All things exist and in their essence are allowed by God’s very Breath.

But in the other sense, God is a gentleman and will not force his love on you and wants you to freely choose to love the Beloved.

 

[jericho777]

Yes. This is very Catholic of you to say, jericho!

Could you please cite the verse that states this?

Lk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

 

[PRmerger]

Lk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Yes. This is a testament of the “great chasm” that was created by the Sin of Adam. No one can cross, until Jesus’ atonement.

 

[jericho777]

Why can’t they?

Rom 8:5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires The mind of sinful man is death …the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

Well, in one sense, yes. All things exist and in their essence are allowed by God’s very Breath.

But in the other sense, God is a gentleman and will not force his love on you and wants you to freely choose to love the Beloved.

God has forced His love upon us by creating us and giving us life. That was not our choice. He gave us all of creation. He causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust.

 

[jericho777]

Yes. This is a testament of the “great chasm” that was created by the Sin of Adam. No one can cross, until Jesus’ atonement.

Not true. Abrahams boosom was where the righteous went before Christ came. Those there were waiting for their redemption.The rich man was assured he was in his final state. He was full of hopelessness and despair.

 

[PRmerger]

Not true. Abrahams boosom was where the righteous went before Christ came. Those there were waiting for their redemption.The rich man was assured he was in his final state. He was full of hopelessness and despair.

This is adding to Scripture, jericho.

 

[jericho777]

Inside Calvinism, why does God predestine people to hell? Does the God of the Calvinists have an arbitrary rule that not everybody can be saved so therefore some have to be damned?

Rom 9:22-24 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

[jericho777]

This is adding to Scripture, jericho.

Not so the gulf was fixed between the righteous and the sinners. There was no lack of peace and joy with father Abraham. Show me where the rich man had any hope.