Predestination, Eternal Security

[Qualiteee]

This is from another forum and I’d like to share this here…

What Does God lose if he loses man?
We have become so accustomed to thinking about eternal damnation in light of what we would be losing.
It is striking the many verses in the Bible that do speak of what, unfortunately, the Universalists misconstrue because they ultimately undermine the absolute meaing of Justice, and God’s no less, about the Salvific plan of God that is intended for ALL. Even though the same “outcome” is met, the means at which the arrival occurs is essential i.e. Universalists believe in a non eternal Hell, which really mirrors a Purgatory, whence, what Scripture proposes is an eternal Hell, logically based on Divine Justice no less, though only that some “may” enter therein.
However, no where have I found that anyone whether dogmatically or definitively will in actually go or is already suffering an eternity in Hell.

What I have found though time and again is the “possiblity” of some going to Hell i.e. eternal seperation from God.

What is Predestination?
Is it that God before time chose a certain few to grant the grace of Salvation and not for others? I don’t find that.
Some might even view Predestination as a Mercy from God because he foresaw who would fail due to their free-will by not fully co-operating with his grace and that’s why he “elected” them graciously. This however opens up alot of door ways and is difficult probably for the non catholic reader because to them faith and faith alone does the trick without any works, merit, increasing grace, justification etc. being brought into the conversation.

What I do find is:

“[God] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:4

“Now is the judgment of this world,…when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself” John 12:31

“God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy upon all” Rom 11:32; 2 Pet 3:9; Titus 2:11; Rom 5:14-21; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20.

And ultimately love hopes all things- 1 Cor 13:7

How can a person hope if they, from all eternity, were not “elected”? This destroys hope and would be presumptuous and contrary; and to further push the question into the realm of mystery alone does a diservice to the truth.

The mystery of predestination as expressed by St. Paul is clearly part of the deposit of faith, but a careful reading of Paul’s epistles shows that the limiting of predestination to only part of humanity is unwarranted. According to St. Paul all of humanity, indeed the whole cosmos, is predestined in Christ, the Firstborn of all creation. - Nick Jr. Healy

In the Letter to the Colossians we find that the truth of “predestination” in Christ is closely connected with the truth of “creation in Christ.” St. Paul wrote: “He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created…” (Col 1:15-16). Thus, the world created in Christ the eternal Son, bears in itself from the beginning, as the first gift of Providence, the call, or the pledge of predestination in Christ. The finality of the world is joined to this, as the fulfillment of the definite eschatological salvation, and first of all of humanity. “For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell” (Col 1:19). The fulfillment of the finality of the world, and especially of man, takes place precisely by means of this fullness which is in Christ. Christ is the fullness. That finality of the world is fulfilled in him in a certain sense. According to it, divine Providence cares for and governs the things of the world, and in particular, man in the world, his life and his history. - Mystery of Predestination in Christ, Vatican 1986

What must be maintained is God’s Salvific will and “desire” for ALL, man’s absolute free will, the necessity of God’s Grace which calls, preceeds, prompts and sustains us, man’s complete co-operation with God and that the ultimate point of creation itself i.e. the foundation of the world is love.
Though prior to this love, the Definitive Love of the Trinity is the Source.

Can the answer to this plagueing question lie in the understanding and reality that we do not know that any man or woman has in fact finally rejected God?

What must be admitted and acknowledged is God’s prescience i.e. His eternal foreknowledge and foreordainment with regards to the doctrine of Predestination.

We mustn’t forget that Predestination must have a supernatural element and understanding because all the souls that obtain Paradise do so primarily because of God’s Grace, as a gift initially and primarily, followed then secondarily by our own Merit, which I have shown time and again is still, nevertheless, based on his utter gratuitousness with regards to his promise to eternally reward us for our good works i.e. acts of love. Remember love, for it will be a solid theme within this.

 

[Qualiteee]

Because of the supernatural state of Predestination, Predestination then would logically have to be tied in with justification, ultimately, which of course entails grace.
Which then would lead me to the subject of grace and from a Catholic perspective, I thank God that my doctrine is based on a splendorous understanding of the many kinds of grace; for, if I was of the Protestant mind, who, sadly, only speak of one kind of grace, this discussion would be extremely difficult to conduct.

To me, the answer to this perplexing and hidden mystery of Predestination, this notion and problem of how a loving God could have foreknowledge of certain person’s failures and yet nevertheless permit evil, suffering, sin and it’s inevitable consequence of final damnation, this enigma is answered, I feel in, not just, but I will start with Prevenient Grace.

What is Prevenient Grace?
To describe, it is the collective drawing of man, of whom no one is exempt.

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” John 12:32

It is the actual grace of God that is present, calls, draws, & follows the person throughout their life on the way to salvation from the state of unbelief and mortal sin to the state of grace and a happy death.

The universality of grace is the key to unlocking the mystery of Predestiation.

God is eternally All knowing, he is aware or cognizant of all things, before they occur, hence, can he be aware that some will ultimately fail and reap an eternal reprobation of Hell i.e. seperation from him?
Theoretically, yes; though I feel in actuality this notion does such a great injustice to the biblical, logical and theological witness and overall description of God, who He is, and what He desires.

In this matter, as I’ve stated before, doctrinally I must and will continue to maintain the eternity of Hell as a state and particulary and most importantly the possiblity of entrance therein.
However, I choose to be an optimist instead of a rigorist; and this is not based on fanciful notions but rather sound and concrete biblical ones.

Have you ever stopped and thought about the ultimate “shame” of the Divine Majesty if the kingdom of Satan were to be larger than the Kingdom of God?

As I have stated in the past, as a Catholic I do believe that the only way to the Father is through Christ, crucified, risen, ascended and eternally glorified. This can not be tampered with, for only Christ is the unique mediator between God and man. He is the only one who can provide an infinite reparation for man’s sin (which man can offend infinitely, though not produce that infinite reparation). Christ, who is God, the infinite and majestic, just, and All Loving God is the only one that can fully mediate between that infinite offense,( caused by a finite being i.e. Man, who nevertheless can only produce a finite reparation which is obviously insufficient) due to Christ’s Hypostatic Union, He is True God and True Man.

Yet, despite, what some might call either a staunch or an exclusivist absolute view, I have not ruled out thepossibility that even the non-baptised, in some way, known to God, can salutarily have their lives connected to Christ, call it the anonymous Christian; as that Prevenient Grace is extended to ALL and not withheld.
God desires that ALL men be saved. God draws ALL men to himself.
I find comfort in how the “destination” of that Prevenient Grace is found precisely at the Cross ~ “…and if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself.” John 12:32

The centrality of my belief is based on love; for even one act of love, sincere and genuine for God is enough to obtain eternal glory. (to be fair, for one act of sin renders the alternative.)

“Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much; but to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.” Luke 7:47

Faith is presented as an absolute necessity for salvation:

“For by grace ye are saved through faith…” Ephesians 2:8

“…the just shall live by faith.” Romans 1:17

Though the “supremacy” of Love is revealed:

“…and though I have all faith…and have not love, I am nothing” 1 Corinthians 13:2

“And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” 1 Corinthians 13:13

You must remember that Salvation is a collaborative effort, between God and man. Hence, to answer your question ‘are we suppose to question Salvation’? Absolutely! Though not in the sense of God’s “role” within it, but rather “our own capabilities”.

A good example is St.Paul. Here is a man that saw Christ, Christ spoke to him, the Holy Spirit moved him to author not only the majority of the New Testament, but also to be probably the greatest religious figure right after Christ, even moreso than Muhammed even as St.Paul’s theology, which is Christo-centric, is at the forefront of the Religion of Christianity.

Yet despite such a covetous resume, he nevertheless speaks as a man of uncertainty:

“If by any means I might attain…Not as though I had already attained…I press toward the mark…” Phillipians 3:11-14

 

[Qualiteee]

We are to have faith, that is a living faith that works through charity (Galatians 5:6), though that faith must be the substance of things hoped for (Hebrews 11:1), as we are:

Saved by grace through faith ~ Ephesians 2:8

Saved by love ~ 1 Corinthians 13:2,13; Luke 7:47; Matthew 16:25 (martyrdom)

And saved by hope ~ Romans 8:24

Denny, precisely because of the fact that we are “suppose” to believe that our actions i.e. good works contribute in the maintenance, preservation, continuance and sustenance of our process toward salvation, wouldn’t you logically conclude then that the alternative actions of bad works would eradicate our current predicament in the state of grace?

With that being said, according to The Sacred Council of Trent (sess. VI, cap. 9-11): the Catholic understanding of Justification, which is diametrically opposed to the Reformationist notions, must be and consist of
uncertainty (incertitudo), inequality (inaequalitas), amissibility (ammisibilitas).

The uncertainty of our ultimate Salvation, again, is not uncertainty toward God, His beneficene, goodness or promises, but rather is based upon our finite and fallen state.

Our uncertainity also, if looked at in a positive “glass half full” perspective, would then contribute toward a greater and stronger Hope; a more fervent desire to Persevere and Continue.

Denny, you can’t have a working or growing eternal security. Remember that eternal security is a belief based on a one time event; hence “secured”, which denotes safety from falter. Qual too would and does acknowledge an absolute assurance on the part of God, though it would be ludacris and albeit self serving to think that us finite beings have a secured capacity to never falter.

What Catholicism proposes is a process, a development, an evolutional blossoming that occurs through time.

You’re tinkering with fundamentalist ground, which isn’t even that all suprising to me as to why fundamentalists are so hostile to the biological theory of evolution and development, as their theology (which naturally will superceed and influence their science) is anti-developmental and rather instantaneously gratifying; there is no struggle, no passion, no perseverance. Is it any wonder why suffering is looked upon as an unneccessary evil by them, with no value (redemptive value at that) whatsoever? Inspite of the biblical witness (Romans 8:17)

Precisely because God IS Love, as you stated, and does not merely love, as an attributive verb, because God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, the entire Gospel is God’s message of who He is and how He acts, which is Love (as a noun and verb so to speak).

Hence, if God is Love, and He so Loved us, is it not, in spite of all the complexities of theology (which I utterly “love” and find altogether quite necessary, though as challenging and daunting as it may be) simple enough to say that our ultimate sufficient and adequate response should be an, albeit inferior,( in terms of being, as ours is finite in comparison to the infinite splendourous and vast ocean of the Infinite One’s) reciprocal love?

“At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love” ~ St. John of the Cross and (Matthew 25:34-46)

Our love i.e. our good works are intrinsic to salvation.

Can a non-christian perform good deeds under the prompting of God’s grace, be it prevenient and actual? I see nowhere that would suggest otherwise.

I’m sorry Denny, you know I love you (seriously) but eternal security, what the real doctrine proclaims, is just not consistent with Catholic theology and doctrines.

Now, maybe you percieve or think that eternal security is something other than what it is; that may be the case.

Eternal Security proclaims that once you’re saved Denny, you’re saved ( which goes against the Catholic understanding of salvation as a process and not a one time for all time event, apart from the moment of Baptism, but the grace of justification can still be lost afterward due to mortal sin) and can never be lost, no matter what you do. Why though? Because the doctrine says that you did nothing of which to earn or obtain salvation, in the first place, therefore you “logically” could do nothing to lose it either, because it is a complete gift.

There’s alot of problems with this because it shatters numerous Catholic doctrines which are found in the Bible:
Free Will
Justification
Sanctification
Sin (Mortal & Venial)
Merit
Faith and Works
Final Perseverance
Hope
Love

“Bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, endure all things.” 1 Corinthians 13:7

 

[Qualiteee]

But according to the Biblical and Catholic understanding of God’s Eternal Promise, it is not what the doctrine of eternal security proclaims because again, eternal security has no room for endurance, patience, works, performance, merit, obedience, perseverance:

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” James 1:12

How do we love God? With our Faith, Hope and Charity; specifically the last one because love of neighbor entails love of God as Qual has shown scripturally numerous times. Faith, Hope and Charity are all connected.

Eternal Security says that Salvation is a Gift, only.

Catholic theology says that Salvation is both a Gift and a Reward.
A gift in the sense that the initial grace of God can never be earned, merited by us or owed to us.
A reward, in the sense that because of his Promise, if we love him (which bibically is keep his commandments and obey him), love our neighbor i.e. good works, endure, persevere, then he will reward us with the “crown of life” i.e. eternal life with him.
Now, the reward aspect is also a grace!!
How so though?
Because again, the initial movement of God, His initiative to offer us this Promise is complete gracious, unmerited and not owed!!
His Promise is a gift! It’s grace! Yet after the intiative, the Promise is conditional.

Which brings me to the heart of the matter I think. You’re not differentiating the conditional aspect of the Promise and of Justification, Sanctification and ultimately Salvation as well.

As I stated before, we can rest assured and be certain about God’s Promise, yet we can not have a complete and absolute assurance about our own ability to stay in grace or the obtain eternal life, fully, because of our free will and propensity to not obey i.e. sin.

We are told, by Christ Himself…to believe in Him!!

But what has Qual been saying about belief i.e. faith all along, from a biblical perspective? It entails the obedience of faith, which is a human effort, guided and assisted by grace no less, yet still, it engenders and fosters a performanced based understanding, while still yet maintaing the gracious aspect of God’s love and help.

On the question of Promise and Inheritance, yes, initially they are both gracious and unmerited. The promise “given” freely. The inheritance “born” into freely. Several scriptures point to the graciousness of the two, given freely, Ephesians 1:11, Titus 1:2, 1 Peter 1:4. However, other scriptures point to the “heir” “remaining” an heir, in order to receive the initially gracious inheritance, and the requisites to “maintaining” an heir’s status, consisting of “continuance, perseverance, keeping, hoping” Titus 3:7, Rev 2:7,26, as well as “loving God” James 1:12, 2:5, which again entails “keep[ing] his commandments [or word]” 1 John 2:5, 5:2, for, God’s “commandments are not grievous” 1 John 5:3; hence, performance, works, with God’s grace, are a “living faith work[ing] through love.” Galatians 5:6
This again is why Christ said “if thou will enter into life keep the commandments” Matthew 19:17, and then clarified “which” commandments he meant i.e. the Decalogue, Matthew 19:18. He spoke of this because the Decalogue is the natural/moral law on stone and speaks of the love of God and neighbor, which Christ says “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets” Matthew 22:40. St.Paul speaks of the same thing in Romans 13:8-9.

“To become just and to be an heir according to the hope of life everlasting” are one and the same thing ~ The Council of Trent

This goes right back Denny to Luther and the doctrine of Justification.