Predestination Free Will and Eternal Damnation

  • Thread starter Thread starter catholicray
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

catholicray

Guest
I understand logically that God “allows” evil for the greater good that man has free will. Without a real choice life could not be capable of love.

Does God know the judgement of a man before he creates him? I believe the answer is yes. There is nothing hidden from the Lord.

My question is why does God create that which he judges damned?

Scripture clearly says in a couple places that it would be “better for that man if he had never been born.”

God would indeed know what is best for all of his creation. Why would he create a man for whom it would be best that he did not create at all?
 
catholicray said:
My question is why does God create that which he judges damned?
Click to expand...
he does it to glorify the justice of his Son. The ultimate purpose of creation is not the happiness of man, but the glory of God. And for the greater glory of God, it is necessary for God to send certain sinners into Hell (to glorify His righteousness), and to choose to save others (to glorify His mercy).
 
I appreciate your response. Please correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be explaining that what God “knows” is not necessarily what will actually be.

To clarify I said God creates man knowing his final judgment of his creation.
You said that mans free will can impact Gods final judgment.

As far as I can tell something has to bend here. Either God knows the final judgment of his creation prior to creating it which implies an unchanging fate.

Or mans free will choices determines Gods judgement and so God does not already know how he will judge a man before he creates him.

I do not see how it could be both and logically.
 
Mboo said:
he does it to glorify the justice of his Son. The ultimate purpose of creation is not the happiness of man, but the glory of God. And for the greater glory of God, it is necessary for God to send certain sinners into Hell (to glorify His righteousness), and to choose to save others (to glorify His mercy).
Click to expand...
Okay first what fool questions the righteousness of God. To be clear I am not questioning Gods righteousness. Rather I am seeking clarification.

If any God creates a living being predestined to suffer in eternal hellfire would we be wrong to say that this would be morally wrong.

It seems you are saying God creates men who will suffer eternally for the Glory of his Son (himself). That really sounds gnarly to me.
 
Rutherford2 said:
God knows what is your destiny when you do Action A, he also knows your destiny when you do Action B, Action C, D, E, F… He did not say you are forever and ONLY damned to Hell if you do Action ABCDEF…
Click to expand...
I don’t find that answer satisfactory. It’s like saying God knows all your potential but he doesn’t know how you will actually be judged. But if God is all knowing then what your saying is a contradiction as far I can tell.
 
catholicray said:
If any God creates a living being predestined to suffer in eternal hellfire would we be wrong to say that this would be morally wrong.

It seems you are saying God creates men who will suffer eternally for the Glory of his Son (himself). That really sounds gnarly to me
Click to expand...
Everyone sin freely, so it is not evil if God sends to Hell whoever has sinned freely. God does not predestinate anyone to Hell. If someone goes to hell, it’s because he freely sinned, it is not because God predestined him for hell.
So why did God still want this person to come into the world, knowing that he would go to hell?? it is the wicked who exercises the most the virtues of the predestined , and therefore allow the predestined to glorify God’s mercy the most. If God had not created, those who are in Hell, then many predestined ones would not have their present glory in Heaven either.
 
Last edited:
catholicray said:
I understand logically that God “allows” evil for the greater good that man has free will. Without a real choice life could not be capable of love.

Does God know the judgement of a man before he creates him? I believe the answer is yes. There is nothing hidden from the Lord.

My question is why does God create that which he judges damned?

Scripture clearly says in a couple places that it would be “better for that man if he had never been born.”

God would indeed know what is best for all of his creation. Why would he create a man for whom it would be best that he did not create at all?
Click to expand...
There must be free will and that has necessary consequences.
 
Mboo said:
Everyone sin freely, so it is not evil if God sends to Hell whoever has sinned freely.
Click to expand...
I agree there is nothing evil about eternal damnation to those who sin freely. But that is not the question here.
Mboo said:
So why did God still want this person to come into the world, knowing that he would go to hell??
Click to expand...
This is the question.
Mboo said:
If God had not created, those who are in Hell, then many predestined ones would not have their present glory in Heaven either.
Click to expand...
So your saying that God creates the damned in order that some may be glorified? WHAT?! I think my question goes unanswered. Is it morally wrong for a God to create a being predestined to damnation?

You seem to be saying that it is not wrong for God to create a being predestined to eternal hellfire because from that great evil the greater good that some are glorified is possible.

Does our discussion then move toward the question as to why the damnation of some is necessary for the glory of others?
 
catholicray said:
You seem to be saying that it is not wrong for God to create a being predestined to eternal hellfire because from that great evil the greater good that some are glorified is possible.
Click to expand...
God does not predestinate anyone for Hell once more. God allows the future damned to come into the world for His glory. This does not mean that these damned were predestined for Hell, in the sense that God had decided in advance that they would be in Hell.
 
Any explanation offered on the question you ask is conjecture because there is no catalog in the possession of humankind of what God knows and what God doesn’t know, except for the widely held notion that God knows everything. Which creates a logical problem with regard to the outcomes we observe and experience here on the ground, such as the example you have cited. Obviously, if God knows everything, then He would of course know in advance the outcome of everything he set in motion, including what outcomes free will would likely produce and He would have had ample opportunity make it by design to be otherwise. This includes whatever proclivities would be attended by free will. And it’s highly dubious to assert that we really have all that much free will in the first place. It’s highly debated.

All that aside, the terms and conditions with regard to what punishments are applied would also have been under the control of the one who governs all things, which is God. Which implies that death, childhood cancer, loss of loved ones, depression, anxiety, earthquakes,hurricanes, tornadoes, disease and famine, and for many - an eternity in hell are the price of prescribed by the most merciful of beings for eating from the wrong tree. Your question points to a lot of problems.

All the best!
 
Last edited:
Sedona said:
Any explanation offered on the question you ask is conjecture because there is no catalog of what God knows and what God doesn’t know
Click to expand...
God is omniscient, he knows everything (present, past, future) everything is under his eyes. It is a truth of Faith, and a truth of reason (otherwise, it is no longer God)
 
catholicray said:
Does God know the judgement of a man before he creates him? I believe the answer is yes. There is nothing hidden from the Lord.

My question is why does God create that which he judges damned?
Click to expand...
There’s an important distinction to your question, and I think it helps resolve the dilemma you’re pondering.

The question is not “does God know ‘before’ creation”, since there is no ‘before’ or ‘after’ with God. After all, He is in the ‘eternal now’, as it were.

The question, I would assert, is “does God know everything that actually occurs in creation, or does He know everything else – all that doesn’t occur?” After all, omnipotence is still omnipotence if it doesn’t include what is not and never shall be, right?

This is a theological debate in the Church; if you Google ‘Molinism’ or ‘middle knowledge’, you’ll learn how the debate has been engaged.

I, personally, don’t have a problem with a lack of middle knowledge; I don’t see this as impinging on God’s omnipotence. The implication is this: God knows everything that is and will be. So, given that it’s already true that a person will be born, God knows that person’s ‘destiny’. However, that doesn’t imply that God knows what would happen to someone whom He does not create.

My grandfather had a brother who died young, having not married or having children. Does God know the color of the eyes of the great-granddaughter he never had? Does the lack of that ‘knowledge’ limit God’s omniscience? I would answer ‘no’.

Now, back to your question: “why does God create that which he judges damned?”

I would answer “He doesn’t. The judgment comes about only by virtue of existence. Once destined for existence, a judgment exists and God knows it. With the lack of existence, there is a lack of judgment. Therefore, there is no Calvinistic ‘double predestination’ (that is, ‘creation for the sake of damnation’).”

Does that help?
 
Last edited:
That is certainly the most reasonable answer thus far. I’ll need time to process what you wrote. I’ll be in touch. As for now thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
From NewAdvent/Summa Theol./ Predestination

“I answer that, Predestination most certainly and infallibly takes effect; yet it does not impose any necessity, so that, namely, its effect should take place from necessity. For it was said above (Article 1), that predestination is a part of providence. But not all things subject to providence are necessary; some things happening from contingency, according to the nature of the proximate causes, which divine providence has ordained for such effects. Yet the order of providence is infallible, as was shown above (I:22:4). So also the order of predestination is certain; yet free-will is not destroyed; whence the effect of predestination has its contingency. Moreover all that has been said about the divine knowledge and will (I:14:13; I:19:4) must also be taken into consideration; since they do not destroy contingency in things, although they themselves are most certain and infallible”.

More context at:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article8
 
Last edited:
I’d say this is a bit of a simplistic understanding. Afterall, our capacity to sin is not simply due to free will but due to the fact that we were created good and even very good, but not perfect. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents our awareness of good and evil–that is that our world is imperfect. There is great good and there is evil. Understanding what it means to “eat of the fruit of the tree” involves looking at what Eve perceives with her eyes and what the serpent is actually tempting her to.

The big temptation is to distrust the goodness of God. The heart of the sin is pride. Somehow she trusts the gift of her intellect but stops trusting God because of what she can’t see and what the serpent suggests to her.

The Gospel is actually the revelation that contradict what is deduced by Adam and Eve. The heart if it is the Beatitudes. Blessed are the poor, those who mourn, etc. It show us what appears to be a rotten element of life and says “This person is blessed by God.”

I like how the Orthodox put it. There is not quit escaping God. There is running from Him. There is trying to get as far into a state of nothingness in preference for enduring God, but the person oriented away from God, the person trying to get away, is the person who experiences the flames of God’s love negatively. It hardens their heart rather than refines their soul.

Purgatory, thus, makes more sense because it is a part of the process of divinization (called theosis in Orthodox circles, though they reject Purgatory out of a sense of rejecting sin as a mere violation of the law requiring some due punishment.). If one is oriented toward God and in the process of allowing God’s grace to burn away their attachment to sin, this process is difficult. One must persevere in faith, recognizing that the fire is God’s grace and that when the process is complete, they will be new creations.

But those in Hell look at the problem of their suffering and see it as a sign that God does not love them, that God does not favor them, and even that God may not be so good afterall. In turning their back to God, they harden their hearts, clinging to their attachment to sin, refusing to let God, and as such they experience God’s love perpetually negatively.

continue
 
The question you ask as to why God created them if they were just going to suffer is much like why God did God create anything that was merely good. Why isn’t His creation perfect? Evil is the negation of the good, it is the imperfection, the capacity to fall. When recognize the fallenness of the world by recognizing natural evils. Honestly, I think it’s a misunderstanding to assume that before the Fall of Man, the world hadn’t fallen. We know, for a fact, that humanity did not exist during the age of the dinosaurs. Natural evils like death did exist. Adam and Eve committed the first moral evils through the abuse of their free will. The story of the fall of man is the story of humanity’s fall. And it is rooted in the fact that we were created very good, but not perfect.

And the answer is that God does not only love the perfect. He loves any good, no matter how imperfect. He loves us, even as we sin. He does not regret His creation. His plan includes the allowance of the fall, and for humanity, we are brought to perfection in learning to love as God loves. As we grow in holiness, we can see the goodness in the fallen world, we can see God present in all things, the light shinning in the darkness. We stop being so ovewhelmed by the darkness and we appreciate that God loved us enough to create us. We appreciate our blessedness even in the midst of suffering. And that message, that gospel, is found in the cross.

I very much suggest reading Lewis’ “Mere Christianity,” “The Great Divorce,” and Servais Pinckaers’ “The Pursuit of Happiness God’s Way: Living the Beautitudes.”
 
Last edited:
Mboo said:
So why did God still want this person to come into the world, knowing that he would go to hell?? it is the wicked who exercises the most the virtues of the predestined , and therefore allow the predestined to glorify God’s mercy the most. If God had not created, those who are in Hell, then many predestined ones would not have their present glory in Heaven either.
Click to expand...
…What.
 
Last edited:
A theory I think is possible is that a bad example can sometimes teach us better than good examples.

God gave us free will however our experiences can help shape our will. Seeing somebody go through the effects of an addiction for example may motivate a person to never start using drugs and increase their chances of getting to heaven.
 
Probably the God is trying to heal them but they’re choosing the devil and rejecting God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top