Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...

[PRmerger]

Fear not, Radyj!

You have not proclaimed anything contrary to Catholicism that I have read.

 

[Christian_Unity]

We Catholics understand ‘predestination’ differently. As others have said, we have been created with a free will.

So we have to look at the meaning of predestination, not from a man’s perspective, but from understanding of what God intended.

He has created us with free will. He has predestined and desirous of all and every human being who has ever been created and will be created, with Him in heaven.

But people have chosen to reject Him. And thus, they are not on the destiny of union with the Lord in the next life.

Do you guys mind qouting from official Catholic sources on such issues? It would be very helpful on this discussion. I’m sure that Catholic views are quite broad, and I would side with the Augustine side of things.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Fear not, Radyj!

You have not proclaimed anything contrary to Catholicism that I have read.

I want official Catholic sources and doctrine on this difficult subject. God is a gentlemen in not Catholic theology.

 

[Radyj]

Rcia is the right of catholic initiation for adults, thank you for changing the subject…

It is a process by which I more closely examine the Catholic Faith learn the teachings of the Church, and yes finally will be accepted in full unity with the church which Christ Founded on the Rock that is his apostle peter, against which the gates of hell will not stand.

St Augustine did hold a single predestination view, in several of his writings. Never did he dispute free will, or the fact that God wishes for the salvation of all.

Ask yourself now since we are changing the subject, Where did John Calvin have the authority or “Mission” to break from Holy Mother church. If he was of God let it be tested, if he is of man then let him be damned. If the spirit had spoken to him let it be proven, for how many heresys would have been, and have been spread by man

 

[Radyj]

CCC 1037 is a start

 

[Christian_Unity]

Rcia is the right of catholic initiation for adults, thank you for changing the subject…

It is a process by which I more closely examine the Catholic Faith learn the teachings of the Church, and yes finally will be accepted in full unity with the church which Christ Founded on the Rock that is his apostle peter, against which the gates of hell will not stand.

St Augustine did hold a single predestination view, in several of his writings. Never did he dispute free will, or the fact that God wishes for the salvation of all.

Ask yourself now since we are changing the subject, Where did John Calvin have the authority or “Mission” to break from Holy Mother church. If he was of God let it be tested, if he is of man then let him be damned. If the spirit had spoken to him let it be proven, for how many heresys would have been, and have been spread by man

Okay, thanks for the clarification. For additional clarification, what do you mean by free will? Augustine defended the Church against Pelagius who seem to promote the idea of free will.

 

[SteveVH]

Do you guys mind qouting from official Catholic sources on such issues? It would be very helpful on this discussion. I’m sure that Catholic views are quite broad, and I would side with the Augustine side of things.

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination” he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: ‘In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your had and your plan had predestined to take place.’ (Acts 4:27-28, cf. Ps 2:1-2) For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness” (CCC par. 600)

 

[PRmerger]

I want official Catholic sources and doctrine on this difficult subject. God is a gentlemen in not Catholic theology.

There is no need to be a Magisterial legalist here, CU.

While in some cases it is important to cite “official” Catholic sources, at other times it is only a legalism that thwarts fruitful dialogue.

 

[Radyj]

This is copy and paste from the C.A. Catholic Encyclopedia. sorry I don’t have the time to break it down. I need to get ready for work, please don’t get too far ahead of me in the discussion

Catholic Doctrine.—Among the early Fathers of the Church, St. Augustine stands preeminent in his handling of this subject. He clearly teaches the freedom of the will against the Manichaeans, but insists against the Semipelagians on the necessity of grace, as a foundation of merit. He also emphasizes very strongly the absolute rule of God over men’s wills by His omnipotence and omniscience—through the infinite store, as it were, of motives which He has had at His disposal from all eternity, and by the foreknowledge of those to which the will of each human being would freely consent. St. Augustine’s teaching formed the basis of much of the later theology of the Church on these questions, though other writers have sought to soften the more rigorous portions of his doctrine. This they did especially in opposition to heretical authors, who exaggerated these features in the works of the great African Doctor and attempted to deduce from his principles a form of rigid predeterminism little differing from fatalism. The teaching of St. Augustine is developed by St. Thomas Aquinas both in theology and philosophy. Will is rational appetite. Man necessarily desires beatitude, but he can freely choose between different forms of it. Free will is simply this elective power. Infinite Good is not visible to the intellect in this life. There are always some drawbacks and deficiencies in every good presented to us. None of them exhausts our intellectual capacity of conceiving the good. Consequently, in deliberate volition, not one of them completely satiates or irresistibly entices the will. In this capability of the intellect for conceiving the universal lies the root of our freedom. But God possess an infallible knowledge of man’s future actions. How is this prevision possible, if man’s future acts are not necessary? God does not exist in time. The future and the past are alike ever present to the eternal mind. As a man gazing down from a lofty mountain takes in at one momentary glance all the objects which can be apprehended only through a lengthy series of successive experiences by travellers along the winding road beneath, in somewhat similar fashion the intuitive vision of God apprehends simultaneously what is future to us with all it contains. Further, God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe. How is this secured without infringement of man’s freedom? Here is the problem which two distinguished schools in the Church—both claiming to represent the teaching, or at any rate the logical development of the teaching of St. Thomas—attempt to solve in different ways. The heresies of Luther and Calvin brought the issue to a finer point than it had reached in the time of Aquinas, consequently he had not formally dealt with it in its ultimate shape, and each of the two schools can cite texts from the works of the Angelic Doctor in which he appears to incline towards their particular view.

 

[Christian_Unity]

There is no need to be a Magisterial legalist here, CU.

While in some cases it is important to cite “official” Catholic sources, at other times it is only a legalism that thwarts fruitful dialogue.

Free will is certainly a loaded theological word with various theological implications. I’m sure being called a Pelagius or semi-Pelagius is not a good thing if you are Catholic. What did Augustine defend against in his battle with the Peligian controversy in regards to free will? Now if you guys post a Pelagius view of free will, then you would hold to a heretical view of free will according to official Catholic doctrine. Do you see what I mean?

 

[SteveVH]

Free will is certainly a loaded theological word with various theological implications. I’m sure being called a Pelagius or semi-Pelagius is not a good thing if you are Catholic. What did Augustine defend against in his battle with the Peligian controversy in regards to free will? Now if you guys post a Pelagius view of free will, then you would hold to a heretical view of free will according to official Catholic doctrine. Do you see what I mean?

Why would any Catholic side with Pelagius? He denied the doctrine of original sin and the need for God’s grace in order for us to do good works, among other things. It seems as if you believe that there are two alternatives, double predestination or Pelagianism. I have already given a quote from the Catechism that I think pretty well sums up the Catholic position (see above).

 

[Christian_Unity]

Let’s keep this simple for all to understand: Please answer this question:

1. Why were you able to come to Christ and others don’t?

 

[PRmerger]

Free will is certainly a loaded theological word with various theological implications. I’m sure being called a Pelagius or semi-Pelagius is not a good thing if you are Catholic. What did Augustine defend against in his battle with the Peligian controversy in regards to free will? Now if you guys post a Pelagius view of free will, then you would hold to a heretical view of free will according to official Catholic doctrine. Do you see what I mean?

Indeed, I do.

Thus, when it is necessary, we will provide quotes from the Magisterium.

When it becomes legalistic to do so, we need not.

 

[SteveVH]

Let’s keep this simple for all to understand: Please answer this question:

1. Why were you able to come to Christ and others don’t?

Because I have freely accepted his invitation and others have freely chosen to reject it.

 

[PRmerger]

Let’s keep this simple for all to understand: Please answer this question:

1. Why were you able to come to Christ and others don’t?

We are all able to come to Christ only through his invitation.

As far as the others who “don’t”, firstly, that is presumptuous. We don’t know, truly, do we if there are others who “don’t”…

But if there are those who don’t come to Christ it is because they have refused his marriage offer to dine at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Because I have freely accepted his invitation and others have freely chosen to reject it.

Why were you able to accept the invitation (command) and most freely reject it? Do you believe that there was someone or something outside of yourself that enabled you to believe in Christ?

 

[Christian_Unity]

We are all able to come to Christ only through his invitation.

As far as the others who “don’t”, firstly, that is presumptuous. We don’t know, truly, do we if there are others who “don’t”…

But if there are those who don’t come to Christ it is because they have refused his marriage offer to dine at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

You appear to be going down that Pelagian road with that response.

Why were you able to accept the invitation (command) and most freely reject it? Do you believe that there was someone or something outside of yourself that enabled you to believe in Christ?

 

[PRmerger]

You appear to be going down that Pelagian road with that response.

I just recently read a non-Catholic poster comment that I was Protestant because I proffered a Catholic teaching that some Protestants have also embraced.

If there is something that a Protestant church believes that is consonant with Catholicism, then I give that Protestant belief a

And if there is something that Pelagius proclaimed that is consonant with the faith, given once for all, then I give him a as well.

Catholicism embraces all truth, no matter who proclaims it.

 

[PRmerger]

Why were you able to accept the invitation (command) and most freely reject it? Do you believe that there was someone or something outside of yourself that enabled you to believe in Christ?

Yes. I thank my parents for baptizing me when I was just a babe.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I just recently read a non-Catholic poster comment that I was Protestant because I proffered a Catholic teaching that some Protestants have also embraced.

If there is something that a Protestant church believes that is consonant with Catholicism, then I give that Protestant belief a

And if there is something that Pelagius proclaimed that is consonant with the faith, given once for all, then I give him a as well.

Catholicism embraces all truth, no matter who proclaims it.

Continue the fun brother…

Why were you able to accept the invitation (command) and most freely reject it? Do you believe that there was someone or something outside of yourself that enabled you to believe in Christ?