Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...

[Christian_Unity]

Were you under the misapprehension that Catholics believe otherwise?

Do Catholics believe they were saved by their own free will, or the will of man (infant regeneration), or the will of God? Protestants would turn to John chapter one for the answer, or at least Reformed Protestant Christians would turn to John chapter 1. Protestantism today is dominated by free will Christians.

 

[PRmerger]

Do Catholics believe they were saved by their own free will, or the will of man (infant regeneration), or the will of God? Protestants would turn to John chapter one for the answer, or at least Reformed Protestant Christians would turn to John chapter 1. Protestantism today is dominated by free will Christians.

This is how Catholics proclaim we are saved, CU:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

 

[KathleenGee]

Good response, PR.

 

[PRmerger]

Good response, PR.

Awww, thanks, friend!

 

[Christian_Unity]

This is how Catholics proclaim we are saved, CU:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

The topic is predestination and free will sister. You already stated that you were born again NOT by your own free will. It seems you are on my side of this debate.

 

[fhansen]

Predesination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism… let’s discuss in a Christ like manner as siblings in Christ.

In Catholicism man’s will is never uninvolved. It’s not either/or, God’s sovereignty vs man’s will, but both/and. From the Catechism:

**1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42 **

 

[Christian_Unity]

In Catholicism man’s will is never uninvolved. It’s not either/or, God’s sovereignty vs man’s will, but both/and. From the Catechism:

**1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42 **

Infant baptismal regeneration where a person is born from above against the infants will is large departure from a free will personal decision to come to Christ. There is no cooperation between the infant and God to be saved. God simply places that infant into a household of faith which believes in baptismal regeneration. So, it was the will of God that you were born from above.

 

[KathleenGee]

If I were to be born of my own free will, I would be a Mormon.

God knew us before we were born. I was blessed to be born of Catholic parents, the simple and devout kind.

I did not deserve such parents.

Now wouldn’t you think that such preoccupations are quite Protestant??? I mean…if I see other people who have not been born in the same circumstances as I, does that make me better than them?

Is that the real issue, that some how we are better than those born without Christ?

Subsequently as Jesus is Word Made Flesh and His Personhood is reflected in anyone who suffers of want, rather than blessing myself again for having been born of such parents, would not it be more Christian to serve Christ in those who suffer around me???

There are those who come to Christ later in life, make such profound conversions, that they truly repent of all sin and live heroic Christian lives.

I don’t think we can make such judgements about this person or that person considering what Baptism is and its effects…in the Catholic sense.

Buono noite!!

 

[PRmerger]

The topic is predestination and free will sister. You already stated that you were born again NOT by your own free will. It seems you are on my side of this debate.

Yes, CU. I agree with you. Because you agree with the Catholic Church.

You seem to think that you are saying something radical here.

But what you say is nothing but that which the Catholic Church has been proclaiming for 2000 years.

We are born again through baptism. We are saved only through the initiative of God, his free invitation of love.

And then we have to say yes!

 

[Christian_Unity]

Yes, CU. I agree with you. Because you agree with the Catholic Church.

You seem to think that you are saying something radical here.

But what you say is nothing but that which the Catholic Church has been proclaiming for 2000 years.

We are born again through baptism. We are saved only through the initiative of God, his free invitation of love.

And then we have to say yes!

Great, so we both believe in sovereign grace and not free will. Augustine would be proud of you sister.

 

[PRmerger]

Infant baptismal regeneration where a person is born from above against the infants will is large departure from a free will personal decision to come to Christ. There is no cooperation between the infant and God to be saved. God simply places that infant into a household of faith which believes in baptismal regeneration. So, it was the will of God that you were born from above.

It is no more “against the infant’s will” to be baptized than it was for the Israelites to circumcise their infant sons.

Both the Israelites and Christians offer God’s covenant to their infants, based on the will of the parents.

 

[PRmerger]

Great, so we both believe in sovereign grace and not free will. Augustine would be proud of you sister.

Where did I say I didn’t believe in free will?

I was saved through baptism through the faith of my parents, and my free will was not involved in that decision at all.

However, if you could cite that post where I said I don’t believe in free will I won’t ask you to retract the above.

Otherwise, I will ask you to retract the above or report you.

I think you are trolling a bit here, CU. And that is not tolerated.

You offer a little bit of bonhomie but it masks an agenda.

 

[Christian_Unity]

It is no more “against the infant’s will” to be baptized than it was for the Israelites to circumcise their infant sons.

Both the Israelites and Christians offer God’s covenant to their infants, based on the will of the parents.

Do you believe circumcision is an Old Testament sacrament which regenerated their infants? Instead of infant baptismal regeneration, maybe we had infant circumcision regeneration? Does that mean only the baby boys received sovereign grace, and the baby girls were passed over?

 

[onemangang]

In regards to predestination, and free will, there are a few Catholic Camps ie: Thomism, Molinism, Congruism to name a few. There isn’t a “Catholic view” per se, but there are certain guidelines to be maintained, to stray outside the deposit of faith is Heresy , for instance Pelagianism and Jansenism were deemed to be such!

We as Catholics must stay within the confines of the deposit of faith!

 

[Radyj]

Do you believe circumcision is an Old Testament sacrament which regenerated their infants? Instead of infant baptismal regeneration, maybe we had infant circumcision regeneration? Does that mean only the baby boys received sovereign grace, and the baby girls were passed over?

Interesting that the debate in the early church was not weather or not Infants should be baptized, but weather the should be baptized at 8 days… just sayin. You do not want to get into the baptism debate here, I have a notebook full of scripture reference.

I’m a bit old-school in my beliefs as far as freewill and predestination (see Thomism) and in what ways that John Calvin may agree with the church I will agree with him. The catechism is clear however that God predestines no one to hell.

Would you answer my earlier question please, from whom did John Calvin receive his mission. (authority to preach)

 

[Christian_Unity]

If I were to be born of my own free will, I would be a Mormon.

God knew us before we were born. I was blessed to be born of Catholic parents, the simple and devout kind.

I did not deserve such parents.

Now wouldn’t you think that such preoccupations are quite Protestant??? I mean…if I see other people who have not been born in the same circumstances as I, does that make me better than them?

Is that the real issue, that some how we are better than those born without Christ?

Subsequently as Jesus is Word Made Flesh and His Personhood is reflected in anyone who suffers of want, rather than blessing myself again for having been born of such parents, would not it be more Christian to serve Christ in those who suffer around me???

There are those who come to Christ later in life, make such profound conversions, that they truly repent of all sin and live heroic Christian lives.

I don’t think we can make such judgements about this person or that person considering what Baptism is and its effects…in the Catholic sense.

Buono noite!!

Ah… another Calvinist Catholic, someone born again by sovereign grace… and the will of God as compared to free will. In my understanding of Catholic theology, God determined to place you in a Catholic household of faith with devout Catholic parents, who baptized you as an infant which washed away your original sin caused by the one act of disobedience of Adam; therefore you were born from above apart from your free will choice. . I must say, I enjoy Catholic Answers Forum!

 

[Christian_Unity]

In regards to predestination, and free will, there are a few Catholic Camps ie: Thomism, Molinism, Congruism to name a few. There isn’t a “Catholic view” per se, but there are certain guidelines to be maintained, to stray outside the deposit of faith is Heresy , for instance Pelagianism and Jansenism were deemed to be such!

We as Catholics must stay within the confines of the deposit of faith!

That’s what I am talking about! Let’s discuss the various beliefs that are allowable as a Catholic. Certainly Augustine’s view is within Catholic guidelines. We could talk about the Augustine Pelagian controversy too so we get a better understanding of the issues. I find infant baptismal regeneration compatible with sovereign grace since the will of the infant obviously does not happen… the infant is born from above apart from free will of the individual.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Where did I say I didn’t believe in free will?

I was saved through baptism through the faith of my parents, and my free will was not involved in that decision at all.

However, if you could cite that post where I said I don’t believe in free will I won’t ask you to retract the above.

Otherwise, I will ask you to retract the above or report you.

I think you are trolling a bit here, CU. And that is not tolerated.

You offer a little bit of bonhomie but it masks an agenda.

Okay, for the record, I retract the statement that PRmerger does not believe in free will. But I hope you understand how I came to that conclusion. Hey, this is very difficult theological stuff. We are discussing the sovereignity of God as compared to the sovereignity of man in salvation. Is God trying to save each and every soul, and if so… why can’t He do it? Certainly, the doctrine of election and predestination is found in Scripture. BTW, if you are my sister in Christ (as compared to brother), you show that you were a former elder. I didn’t realize Catholics allowed women elders. Interesting…

 

[Christian_Unity]

Interesting that the debate in the early church was not weather or not Infants should be baptized, but weather the should be baptized at 8 days… just sayin. You do not want to get into the baptism debate here, I have a notebook full of scripture reference.

I’m a bit old-school in my beliefs as far as freewill and predestination (see Thomism) and in what ways that John Calvin may agree with the church I will agree with him. The catechism is clear however that God predestines no one to hell.

Would you answer my earlier question please, from whom did John Calvin receive his mission. (authority to preach)

I’m not sure how an authority to preach has anything to do with the thread topic. I don’t want to derail this thread with a discussion of apostolic succession verses sola scriptura. Let me post a link to double predestination so people can understand what we are talking about. It is written by RC Sproul who is very respectful to Catholics. If it’s normative that the early church baptized their infants, and if infant baptism is true, then the early church infants were born from above and became members of the church apart from their own free will. Therefore, we can conclude that the concept of coming to Christ on your own free will is a new belief in the church.

Double-Predestination:

the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html

 

[fhansen]

That’s what I am talking about! Let’s discuss the various beliefs that are allowable as a Catholic. Certainly Augustine’s view is within Catholic guidelines. We could talk about the Augustine Pelagian controversy too so we get a better understanding of the issues. I find infant baptismal regeneration compatible with sovereign grace since the will of the infant obviously does not happen… the infant is born from above apart from free will of the individual.

Seems to me Molinism, if I understand it correctly, has pretty well dominated here. In any case the following expands on the CCs teaching on “predestination”:

**600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

**