Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...

[Christian_Unity]

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

One way to understand why some Christians believe in double-predestination really has to do with the grace of God. For those who turn away from God, do they experience a different amount or degree of the sustaining grace of God than believers? To better understand my point, why do some seem to receive more grace than others? For a Catholic, I guess you can turn to the sacraments to receive more grace than others. But for the unbeliever, why do they reject Christ and we don’t. I would say that we are vessels of His mercy and grace… which enables us to love Christ continuously. The unbeliever is not born into a Catholic family with infant baptismal regeneration, nor a Protestant household in which the infant is clean, sanctified, and holy (1 Cor 7). The unbelieving household infants do not have parents who are praying for them like Catholic and Christian parents.

 

[Radyj]

I’m not sure how an authority to preach has anything to do with the thread topic. I don’t want to derail this thread with a discussion of apostolic succession verses sola scriptura. Let me post a link to double predestination so people can understand what we are talking about. It is written by RC Sproul who is very respectful to Catholics. If it’s normative that the early church baptized their infants, and if infant baptism is true, then the early church infants were born from above and became members of the church apart from their own free will. Therefore, we can conclude that the concept of coming to Christ on your own free will is a new belief in the church.

Double-Predestination:

the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html

I’m curious?? do you believe that someone can come to Christ sans free will?

 

[SteveVH]

BTW, if you are my sister in Christ (as compared to brother), you show that you were a former elder. I didn’t realize Catholics allowed women elders. Interesting…

PRmerger is a Forum elder, not a Former elder in the Church. We don’t have “elders” in the Catholic Church.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m not sure how an authority to preach has anything to do with the thread topic. I don’t want to derail this thread with a discussion of apostolic succession verses sola scriptura. Let me post a link to double predestination so people can understand what we are talking about. It is written by RC Sproul who is very respectful to Catholics. If it’s normative that the early church baptized their infants, and if infant baptism is true, then the early church infants were born from above and became members of the church apart from their own free will. Therefore, we can conclude that the concept of coming to Christ on your own free will is a new belief in the church.

One is always free to reject their Baptismal grace and live a life of sin. One has an obligation to live out the new life life they were given at baptism. And all of that comes down to one’s own free will. Baptism is a gift. Living in accordance with that gift is a choice requiring free will.

And no, the concept of coming to Christ on one’s own free will is not a new belief in the Church. Where in the world did you get such an idea? Those above the age of reason must choose according to their own free will, that is just the nature of the matter. Regardless, it is still a gift. The infant receives due to the desire of its parents that it have everlasting life. Who would not want that for their children? The adult is free to accept or reject the gift. All must live it out and persevere to the end or be lost.

 

[SteveVH]

One way to understand why some Christians believe in double-predestination really has to do with the grace of God. For those who turn away from God, do they experience a different amount or degree of the sustaining grace of God than believers?

If you are in the desert and I give you a gallon of water and you throw that water away do you have less water than when you started?

To better understand my point, why do some seem to receive more grace than others? For a Catholic, I guess you can turn to the sacraments to receive more grace than others. But for the unbeliever, why do they reject Christ and we don’t.

Maybe they prefer a life free of God’s commandments and therefore free of God himself. Maybe they prefer fulfilling their own desires rather than working for the kingdom of God. Its a choice. We can say yes or we can say no.

I would say that we are vessels of His mercy and grace… which enables us to love Christ continuously. The unbeliever is not born into a Catholic family with infant baptismal regeneration, nor a Protestant household in which the infant is clean, sanctified, and holy (1 Cor 7). The unbelieving household infants do not have parents who are praying for them like Catholic and Christian parents.

Are you saying then that this person’s salvation is basically in the hands of the people around him, who are not praying for him? God knows all of this much better than we. He knows the circumstances, the absence of opportunities, and most importantly the heart of every person and judges us accordingly. It is God’s desire to pour out his grace upon everyone. But grace requires a response on our part, a free-willed decision to embrace it or ignore it.

 

[Radyj]

I’m not sure how an authority to preach has anything to do with the thread topic. I don’t want to derail this thread with a discussion of apostolic succession verses sola scriptura. Let me post a link to double predestination so people can understand what we are talking about. It is written by RC Sproul who is very respectful to Catholics. If it’s normative that the early church baptized their infants, and if infant baptism is true, then the early church infants were born from above and became members of the church apart from their own free will. Therefore, we can conclude that the concept of coming to Christ on your own free will is a new belief in the church.

Double-Predestination:

the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html

I was not attempting to derail the thread. Consider however the source. Christ condemns divorce, yet the Reformation divorced the Church. We can start another thread on this topic if you would like.

Do you believe that a man can be saved without free will?

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life

Pelagianism is condemned by the Church as heresy; rightly so for we are indeed saved by grace, and through faith, it is not of works (not of the old law). Apart from God we can do nothing, yet again I must point to scripture which says God wills that none should perish. St Augustine who you are so fond of misrepresenting believed that God provided enough grace to all men to come to salvation. Why then are all men not saved? Well (insert extreme sarcasm) because God wills them to go to hell…

Which is after a fashion true. There was a young man, invited by his family, friends and Church to the church picnic, The young mans father told him, “son if you do not clean your room you can’t go” failing to clean his room the young man stayed home bitter, angry and full of tears. The father wanted to take his son to the church picnic however as a result of his failure to comply to the will of his father he could not go.

Thus we see the in poor comparison the Antecedent and Consequent wills of God, that is what he wants if we cooperate, and what will happen if we don’t

“well if God wills it why doesn’t it happen” (sorry putting words into your mouth)

The Apostle says (Ephesians 1:11): “Who worketh all things according to the counsel of His will.” Now, what we work according to the counsel of the will, we do not will necessarily. Therefore God does not will necessarily whatever He wills. (from suma thelogica question 19 article 3)

Since, then, the will of God is the universal cause of all things, it is impossible that the divine will should not produce its effect. Hence that which seems to depart from the divine will in one order, returns into it in another order; as does the sinner, who by sin falls away from the divine will as much as lies in him, yet falls back into the order of that will, when by its justice he is punished. (another one from St. Thomas Aquinas)

 

[fhansen]

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

One way to understand why some Christians believe in double-predestination really has to do with the grace of God. For those who turn away from God, do they experience a different amount or degree of the sustaining grace of God than believers? To better understand my point, why do some seem to receive more grace than others? For a Catholic, I guess you can turn to the sacraments to receive more grace than others. But for the unbeliever, why do they reject Christ and we don’t. I would say that we are vessels of His mercy and grace… which enables us to love Christ continuously. The unbeliever is not born into a Catholic family with infant baptismal regeneration, nor a Protestant household in which the infant is clean, sanctified, and holy (1 Cor 7). The unbelieving household infants do not have parents who are praying for them like Catholic and Christian parents.

We can’t necessarily know the answers to those questions-only that God is infinitely just and we’ll be judged according to what we’ve done with whatever time, revelation, grace, opportunities in general we’ve been given. That’s the basic meaning of the Parable of the Talents. Luke 12:48 also comes to mind.

 

[PRmerger]

Ah… another Calvinist Catholic…

Well, that’s a little like saying that a Catholic poster who believes, like Lutherans do, that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ is a “Lutheran Catholic”.

Actually, the more apropos comment would be, “Ah…another Catholic.” Period.

To the degree that Lutherans and Calvinists proclaim Catholic teachings is the degree that they have proclaimed the Truth. That makes them Catholic in that theology. It is not Catholics becoming Lutheran or Calvinist.

 

[PRmerger]

Do you believe circumcision is an Old Testament sacrament which regenerated their infants? Instead of infant baptismal regeneration, maybe we had infant circumcision regeneration? Does that mean only the baby boys received sovereign grace, and the baby girls were passed over?

No, CU. No one was regenerated until Christ established His Church to be the primary channel of grace through the Sacraments.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m a bit old-school in my beliefs as far as freewill and predestination (see Thomism) and in what ways that John Calvin may agree with the church I will agree with him.

'zactly.

Where Calvin has divorced himself from the faith given, once for all, he was preaching heresy. Where he is consonant with the faith, he is preaching Catholicism.

The catechism is clear however that God predestines no one to hell.

Indeed.

 

[PRmerger]

In my understanding of Catholic theology, God determined to place you in a Catholic household of faith with devout Catholic parents, who baptized you as an infant which washed away your original sin caused by the one act of disobedience of Adam;** therefore you were born from above apart from your free will choice**. . I must say, I enjoy Catholic Answers Forum!

Yes. It Kathleen Gee’s entry into the family of Christ was dependent upon the free will of her parents.

Just as the Hebrew infant’s entry into the family of God was dependent upon the free will of his parents.

 

[PRmerger]

That’s what I am talking about! Let’s discuss the various beliefs that are allowable as a Catholic. Certainly Augustine’s view is within Catholic guidelines. We could talk about the Augustine Pelagian controversy too so we get a better understanding of the issues. I find infant baptismal regeneration compatible with sovereign grace since the will of the infant obviously does not happen… the infant is born from above apart from free will of the individual.

Yes. This is very Catholic.

As long as it is the free will of the parents to have their child baptized.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, for the record, I retract the statement that PRmerger does not believe in free will.

Acknowledged.

But I hope you understand how I came to that conclusion.

Nope.

Hey, this is very difficult theological stuff.

Truly, I find no difficulty in this at all, and, frankly, am puzzled by your questions here.

It does appear as if you think you have been approaching soteriology with a very radical paradigm…

when really all you are doing is reiterating that which the CC has been proclaiming for 2000 years.

We are saved by God’s free gift of grace.

There is nothing we can do to earn it.

Which is why it is offered to infants.

Nothing very radical or theologically complex here.

 

[PRmerger]

Is God trying to save each and every soul, and if so…

No. There is no “trying” with God at all.

Salvation was given, once for all, 2000 years ago.

It is now up to us to cooperate with this gift given to us.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger is a Forum elder, not a Former elder in the Church. We don’t have “elders” in the Catholic Church.

 

[PRmerger]

For those who turn away from God, do they experience a different amount or degree of the sustaining grace of God than believers?

God’s grace is always sufficient. It is not always efficacious.

To better understand my point, why do some seem to receive more grace than others?

Is there some way you have measured the amount of grace Christian A has received as opposed to Christian B?

But for the unbeliever, why do they reject Christ and we don’t.

Perhaps it is because they have not been well catechized.

I would say that we are vessels of His mercy and grace… which enables us to love Christ continuously. The unbeliever is not born into a Catholic family with infant baptismal regeneration, nor a Protestant household in which the infant is clean, sanctified, and holy (1 Cor 7). The unbelieving household infants do not have parents who are praying for them like Catholic and Christian parents.

And that is why the Church has mandated so strongly that we evangelize.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I’m curious?? do you believe that someone can come to Christ sans free will?

I don’t think anyone can come to Christ apart from the enabling work of the Spirit of God. In our fallen nature, we run from God and never towards Him.

 

[Christian_Unity]

PRmerger is a Forum elder, not a Former elder in the Church. We don’t have “elders” in the Catholic Church.

Okay, thanks!

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think anyone can come to Christ apart from the enabling work of the Spirit of God.

And this is very Catholic of you to say.

In our fallen nature, we run from God and never towards Him.

Well, I wouldn’t say "never’. Did not the Good Samaritan turn towards God when he helped the stranger, but he knew not Christ?

 

[Christian_Unity]

One is always free to reject their Baptismal grace and live a life of sin. One has an obligation to live out the new life life they were given at baptism. And all of that comes down to one’s own free will. Baptism is a gift. Living in accordance with that gift is a choice requiring free will.

And no, the concept of coming to Christ on one’s own free will is not a new belief in the Church. Where in the world did you get such an idea? Those above the age of reason must choose according to their own free will, that is just the nature of the matter. Regardless, it is still a gift. The infant receives due to the desire of its parents that it have everlasting life. Who would not want that for their children? The adult is free to accept or reject the gift. All must live it out and persevere to the end or be lost.

Okay, but try to follow my Protestant thinking for a sec. In 1 Cor 1, God reveals that the man without the Spirit cannot discern the things of God; the natural man without the Spirit has no desire for the things of God, nor can the unregenerate please God. Now, there is a a degree of election for the Catholic infant who was baptized since that infant now has the Spirit of God in him which empowers that infant with a desire for the things of God. The unregenerate man is inclined toward sin by his fallen nature. The regenerate infant is inclined toward righteousness by his regenerate nature and the Spirit who dwells in him. Do you seem to agree that the will is either influenced by an unregenerate nature or a regenerate nature? The will is not free from outside influences in either condition.