Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...

[guanophore]

1 Tim 2:2-5
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Yes, I do hold to double predestination.  I would respond by saying if God willed that all men to be saved, then all men would be saved. Who can oppose the sovereign will of God?

Ok, so then when you read that scripture, what do you understand it to mean?

And how does your understanding relate to this:

Luke 7:29-31
29(When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John; 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)

If they were predestined to salvation how could they “reject” it, and if they were not among the elect, then is it not God’s purpose for them that they reject salvation?

The doctrine of election is found throughout the Scriptures. .

Indeed, but it needs to be understood in it’s context. The NT is written by, for, and about Catholics, so it can only be properly understood within the context of Catholic Faith. When Scripture is taken away from the One Faith of the people who penned it, the proper meaning is lost.

 

[fhansen]

Okay, but try to follow my Protestant thinking for a sec. In 1 Cor 1, God reveals that the man without the Spirit cannot discern the things of God; the natural man without the Spirit has no desire for the things of God, nor can the unregenerate please God. Now, there is a a degree of election for the Catholic infant who was baptized since that infant now has the Spirit of God in him which empowers that infant with a desire for the things of God. The unregenerate man is inclined toward sin by his fallen nature. The regenerate infant is inclined toward righteousness by his regenerate nature and the Spirit who dwells in him. Do you seem to agree that the will is either influenced by an unregenerate nature or a regenerate nature? The will is not free from outside influences in either condition.

The regenerate isn’t forced to remain in that state. If an infant lives on into adulthood, his will plays an increasing role in his state of righteousness as he struggles with sin, with concupiscence. In any case, for an adult with sound reasoning abilities, he’s held accountable for his choices.

 

[Christian_Unity]

1 Tim 2:2-5
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ok, so then when you read that scripture, what do you understand it to mean?

And how does your understanding relate to this:

Luke 7:29-31
29(When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John; 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)

If they were predestined to salvation how could they “reject” it, and if they were not among the elect, then is it not God’s purpose for them that they reject salvation?

Indeed, but it needs to be understood in it’s context. The NT is written by, for, and about Catholics, so it can only be properly understood within the context of Catholic Faith. When Scripture is taken away from the One Faith of the people who penned it, the proper meaning is lost.

Thanks for joining us on this predestination free will thread! It’s a nice break from the forensic discussion. Augustine sure seems to push the predestination position. God does desire all men to be saved. I guess theologians come up with concepts like permissible will, desire, sovereign will, etc… Since sovereignty is the underlying theme, let’s discuss God’s sovereignty over the weather. Do you believe God sent, directed, or permitted the storm Sandy to cause all that damage and destruction; or do you believe Mother Nature has a will of its own apart from God?

 

[PRmerger]

or do you believe Mother Nature has a will of its own apart from God?

Mother Nature, like gravity, has no will. It simply does that which it was created to do. Gravity pulls down. Mother Nature natures.

 

[guanophore]

 That is the classical Protestant Arminian response that has no biblical support or basis.

Actually, it is the response of the ancient faith of the Church founded by Christ. It so happened that Arminius retained this. The Apostles taught that God created us through and for love. He wants primarily to have a relationship with his creatures, and has made provision for them to be united with Him as a Bride is united to a Bridegroom.

The argument that we are not puppets has no biblical basis either. God always does what He pleases for His own glory, independent from man. He is our sovereign God and His sovereign will always comes to pass.

This is frightening and very sad world view. How anyone can read the scriptures and not see that it is full of relationship, and God’s desire to be united in love with His people must be very blind. Reading this statement has caused me to have to rethink the psychological health of Calvin.

God chose not to be “independent” of man, and became Himself a man, so that He could bring us to Himself in love.

I think you might be surprised on what is allowed as a Catholic to believe on these tough issues.

Yes, I think a lot of Catholics would be surprised. It is not an area of teaching that is much discussed.

. You don’t want to fall in the Pelagian camp of things.

An important heresy to avoid, and into which many Catholics have erroneously fallen prey because they are inadequately chatechized.

It also seems the word “semi-Pelagius” is bad too on Catholic Answers Forums.

Not so much as it is “bad” for the eternal soul. It is not possible for humans to work their way to heaven, fully, or “semi”. We attain heaven by grace, through faith, not of our own works.

I'm sure that Catholic views are quite broad, and I would side with the Augustine side of things.

Only because you are cherry picking out of his writings, like you do the Scriptures, avoiding all the parts that don’t support the doctrine as you have been taught. If you REALLY sided with Augustine, you would be Catholic, because he was so thoroughly.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. For additional clarification, what do you mean by free will? Augustine defended the Church against Pelagius who seem to promote the idea of free will.

The bulk of his battle with Pelagius related to Pelagius errant notion that man, though his innate human goodness, could merit heaven.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Mother Nature, like gravity, has no will. It simply does that which it was created to do. Gravity pulls down. Mother Nature natures.

Ah… I would say Scripture testifies otherwise. Can you think of the Scriptures in which God is sovereign over Mother Nature? Who sustains the universe and even the wind obeys Him? This person also causes the rain to fall on the righteous and unrighteous.

 

[SteveVH]

Okay, but try to follow my Protestant thinking for a sec. In 1 Cor 1, God reveals that the man without the Spirit cannot discern the things of God; the natural man without the Spirit has no desire for the things of God, nor can the unregenerate please God. Now, there is a a degree of election for the Catholic infant who was baptized since that infant now has the Spirit of God in him which empowers that infant with a desire for the things of God. The unregenerate man is inclined toward sin by his fallen nature. The regenerate infant is inclined toward righteousness by his regenerate nature and the Spirit who dwells in him. Do you seem to agree that the will is either influenced by an unregenerate nature or a regenerate nature? The will is not free from outside influences in either condition.

God’s grace can certainly give us the strength and wisdom to serve him more fully and to reject temptation; a desire to draw clower to him. But God draws all people to himself and all people, the regenerate and the unregenerate must deal with the reality of concupiscence in our lives.

Our will is not free from outside influences, but it is still free will. This has been discussed in detail already in earlier posts on this thread.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t think anyone can come to Christ apart from the enabling work of the Spirit of God. In our fallen nature, we run from God and never towards Him.

Although the Apostles taught that the HS does draw us to Himself, and no one can come unless he is drawn, the second part of your statement reflects a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. A good passage to examine this issue is Acts. ch. 10. At what point did Cornelius become born again?

 

[PRmerger]

Ah… I would say Scripture testifies otherwise.

Says otherwise than what I said?

That Mother Nature* doesn’t * " nature"? Gravity doesn’t pull down?

What verse says that?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Although the Apostles taught that the HS does draw us to Himself, and no one can come unless he is drawn, the second part of your statement reflects a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. A good passage to examine this issue is Acts. ch. 10. At what point did Cornelius become born again?

LOL, you are making this too easy for me brother. Cornelius was born from above before he was baptized. Here is the end of the Cornelius account:

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. - Acts 10

 

[Christian_Unity]

Says otherwise than what I said?

That Mother Nature* doesn’t * " nature"? Gravity doesn’t pull down?

What verse says that?

Oh okay, we both agree that God is sovereign over the weather including natural disasters, correct? I personally think God sent both hurricanes prior to the Presidential election to determine the results of our election. The first hurricane undermined the Republican convention; the second hurricane made Governor Christy appear to be Obama’s best friend… and took the focus away from the economy to big government support in FEMA. And yes, God appoints our leaders according to His sovereign will (Rom 13).

 

[SteveVH]

Oh okay, we both agree that God is sovereign over the weather including natural disasters, correct? I personally think God sent both hurricanes prior to the Presidential election to determine the results of our election. The first hurricane undermined the Republican convention; the second hurricane made Governor Christy appear to be Obama’s best friend… and took the focus away from the economy to big government support in FEMA. And yes, God appoints our leaders according to His sovereign will (Rom 13).

Then remind me not to vote next time. I’m still numb.

 

[PRmerger]

LOL, you are making this too easy for me brother. Cornelius was born from above before he was baptized.

How is it that you believe that Cornelius received this regeneration?

 

[PRmerger]

Oh okay, we both agree that God is sovereign over the weather including natural disasters, correct?

God is indeed sovereign over the weather.

Now, as to it was his antecedent will or his consequent will to send Sandy to the East Coast, the CC has no teaching on this.

I personally think God sent both hurricanes prior to the Presidential election to determine the results of our election. The first hurricane undermined the Republican convention; the second hurricane made Governor Christy appear to be Obama’s best friend… and took the focus away from the economy to big government support in FEMA. And yes, God appoints our leaders according to His sovereign will (Rom 13).

My reaction to this: whatshouldwecallme.tumblr.com/post/21990205865/when-i-see-a-guy-wearing-cargo-shorts

 

[Christian_Unity]

Then remind me not to vote next time. I’m still numb.

I was one of those “Christian for Obama” who had a very big smile for the last several weeks. It looks like this:

 

[SteveVH]

I was one of those “Christian for Obama” who had a very big smile for the last several weeks. It looks like this:

I won’t even go there. :bighanky:

 

[Christian_Unity]

 Notre Dame Fighting Irish--UNDEFEATED!

On a side note, I live 30 minutes from the University of Oregon. My oldest son graduated from the U of O and my youngest son plays in the U of O marching band with great seats to the Ducks football games. We are all still crying over our lost to Stanford a few weeks ago. The Oregon Ducks would have smeared Norte Dame in the BCS championship game. Oh well… do you think God cares who wins the BCS Championship game? Be careful about boasting too much because one of the SEC teams is probably predestined to win again.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I won’t even go there. :bighanky:

More Catholics voted for Obama than against him. Now those Fundamentalist right wing Republicans were too busy slandering President Obama, so God humbled that group of Christians for their sin of slander. You probably can tell; I like Catholics way more than Fundamentalist Christians. All of my conservative Fundamentalist Christian friends think I’m apostate for supporting President Obama and sticking up for the Catholic Faith.

 

[PRmerger]

On a side note, I live 30 minutes from the University of Oregon. My oldest son graduated from the U of O and my youngest son plays in the U of O marching band with great seats to the Ducks football games. We are all still crying over our lost to Stanford a few weeks ago. The Oregon Ducks would have smeared Norte Dame in the BCS championship game. Oh well… do you think God cares who wins the BCS Championship game? Be careful about boasting too much because one of the SEC teams is probably predestined to win again.

Since God loves Notre Dame above all other universities, I don’t think it’s stretching it to say that God wants ND to win the National Championship.

 

[SteveVH]

More Catholics voted for Obama than against him. Now those Fundamentalist right wing Republicans were too busy slandering President Obama, so God humbled that group of Christians for their sin of slander. You probably can tell; I like Catholics way more than Fundamentalist Christians. All of my conservative Fundamentalist Christian friends think I’m apostate for supporting President Obama and sticking up for the Catholic Faith.

Those would be Catholics who voted contrary to the teachings of their Church. Yep, pretty sad indeed. They went with a party who had a tissy fit over even including the word “God” in their platform. Like I said, I’m just pretty much numb at this point.