Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...

[Christian_Unity]

Since God loves Notre Dame above all other universities, I don’t think it’s stretching it to say that God wants ND to win the National Championship.

Let’s see if God approves of Catholics more than Evangelical Fundamentalists. You probably know that Alabama is one of those conservative Fundamentalist states… so if the BCS championship is between Norte Dame and Alabama, it is a sure sign of which Christian group God favors by who wins. If Georgia gets in, I think they too are one of those conservative Fundamentalist states too… so the bet still applies. We can settle all of our theological disputes over one football game. The winner of that game settles who is theologically right on all accounts. God is even sovereign over football games.

 

[Radyj]

Careful this thread is leaning close to fatalism, another Heresy. Much like Calvinism but a little more extreme.

Pray for the innocent life lost, sacrificed to the new Baal of convenience on the alter of planned parenthood

 

[Christian_Unity]

Careful this thread is leaning close to fatalism, another Heresy. Much like Calvinism but a little more extreme.

Pray for the innocent life lost, sacrificed to the new Baal of convenience on the alter of planned parenthood

Quick question: do you believe aborted babies go to Heaven? Some Protestants believe in the age of accountability, so with that view what would be their answer? I believe elect infants who die in abortion or in infancy go to Heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

Let’s see if God approves of Catholics more than Evangelical Fundamentalists. You probably know that Alabama is one of those conservative Fundamentalist states… so if the BCS championship is between Norte Dame and Alabama, it is a sure sign of which Christian group God favors by who wins. If Georgia gets in, I think they too are one of those conservative Fundamentalist states too… so the bet still applies. We can settle all of our theological disputes over one football game. The winner of that game settles who is theologically right on all accounts. God is even sovereign over football games.

whatshouldwecallme.tumblr.com/post/21635002005/when-a-guy-plays-hard-to-get-with-me

(The sentiment is the icon video. Not the title.)

 

[PRmerger]

Quick question: do you believe aborted babies go to Heaven? Some Protestants believe in the age of accountability, so with that view what would be their answer.

First you need to answer this question posed earlier: How is it that you believe that Cornelius received this regeneration?

 

[SteveVH]

Careful this thread is leaning close to fatalism, another Heresy. Much like Calvinism but a little more extreme.

Pray for the innocent life lost, sacrificed to the new Baal of convenience on the alter of planned parenthood

AMEN!

 

[guanophore]

. So the will is not free from outside influences… because the will is influenced by God. Free will means that nothing outside of yourself influences your decision to come to Christ.

Wow. I had no idea Calvanists defined free will this way! No wonder you don’t believe human beings have one.

 Yep, we have to clarify what everyone means by free will.  We also should start discussing our ablity or inability to come to Christ on our own free will, and what we mean by that. Does God the Holy Spirit enable us to come to Christ in the same way from other sinners.

God created us for Himself, and desires that we all come to Him and live in perfect unity.

God calls/commands every one to repent and believe.

God gives every person sufficient grace to be saved.

If a person chooses to rebel against God, He allows them to do so.

If a person chooses to follow His commands, He will provide grace upon grace, to perfect our faith.

It seems you stated that you were baptized as an infant by Catholic parents. So, it was never your own free will to be born again since it was your parent’s will to give you the gift of infant baptismal regeneration. Now, this entire conversation of free will is taking a strange twist. Do you agree by Catholic theology that you were born again as an infant through baptismal regeneration… and your free will had nothing to do with it? Now that’s sovereign grace in a Catholic way of seeing things.

Yes, all of us who have been baptized as infants in the Catholic church would affirm that we were born again and our free will had nothing to do with it. Persistence in the faith, though, does involve acts of the will througout life. As we grow in faith we receive communion, confession, and other sacraments all that require freely chosen continuance in the faith. Daily we can choose to take up our cross and follow Him, or to deny Him.

Now that's what I am talking about.  Even Scripture bears witness that we do not come to Christ by our own free will.  Check out John chapter 1 and let's play like Protestants.

Well, certainly not by Calvin’s definition, which seems essentially that there is no free will at all.

But the Apostles did not teach what Calvin believed about free will. They taught tht it is possibl to reject God’s desire that we all be saved.

Do Catholics believe they were saved by their own free will, or the will of man (infant regeneration), or the will of God?

The decision of parents to baptize their children is not the will of man either. Only the HS, drawing people by grace, through faith, can bring any parent to bring their child near to God. Such was the case with circumcision, parents complied with the command of God do do so. In the NT, baptism replaces circumcision as the entrance rite into the Kingdom. Jesus teaches us to suffer the little children to come unto Him, but this only happens by grace.

John 1:12-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

In baptism God acts on the faith of the parents to perform the circumxcision made without hands, just as He included the infants of the Jews in the circumcision made by human hands.

Protestantism today is dominated by free will Christians.

Do you mean, Christians that believe free will is a will that is not affected by any outside influences, including the grace of God? I find that hard to believe.

Infant baptismal regeneration where a person is born from above against the infants will

This has to be one of the most absurd things I have ever read. What could possibly draw one to assume that since the child cannot give consent, that it is “against” their will? We can only speculate about whether the soul of an infant desired God… Calvanists would say no, because their concept of humanity is tainted by the error of total depravity.

Even with our limited scientific understanding of human development we know that the infant has not yet attained the capacity for what we as adults know as free will.

Would you say that all Jewish infants were circumcised “against their will”? Was Jesus circumcised “against his will”?

 is large departure from a free will personal decision to come to Christ. There is no cooperation between the infant and God to be saved.  God simply places that infant into a household of faith which believes in baptismal regeneration. So, it was the will of God that you were born from above.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Radyj]

I pray God will be merciful, that being said find me one scriptural reference to the age of accountability. I fear it is entirely possible for the soul of the unborn still tainted by original sin not to find eternal glory. Still I have hope that perhaps they will find themselves with the Saints and martyrs in heaven.

 

[guanophore]

Great, so we both believe in sovereign grace and not free will. Augustine would be proud of you sister.

Sovereign grace, most definitiely but no Catholic would accept the butchery that Calvin has done to the concept of “free will”.

Where did I say I didn’t believe in free will?

I was saved through baptism through the faith of my parents, and my free will was not involved in that decision at all.

However, if you could cite that post where I said I don’t believe in free will I won’t ask you to retract the above.

Otherwise, I will ask you to retract the above or report you.

I think you are trolling a bit here, CU. And that is not tolerated.

You offer a little bit of bonhomie but it masks an agenda.

You have to admit, she is pretty good at it too. Although recently the jumps have been too large and noticable. The jump from an infant having no will to “against” their will, and from an infant not having any choice to “no free will” at all were too much ground to cover at once. The insidious baby steps were working under cover much better.

Hey, this is very difficult theological stuff.  We are discussing the sovereignity of God as compared to the sovereignity of man in salvation.

Actually, no. Catholics do not have anything to discuss in such an artificial either/or way of categorizing. We understand that God became man, so that He could draw us to Himself in our humanity. He assumed human nature, then took that human nature to heaven when He ascended. He, the sovereign God of the universe has united Himself with humanity in taking to Himself human nature. Therefore there is no longer any striving between the two, for He is sovereign in both. He it is who works His grace in our human natures to conform them to His own desire. And in this work He moves by Love in us, and for us. As the apple of His eye, we are not puppets, but part of His beloved bride, for whom He has laid down His life.

Is God trying to save each and every soul, and if so... why can't He do it?

In His sovereignty He has willed that we choose to be with Him, or not. I see nothing in scripture that would lead me to believe that God is “trying” to save any souls and was unable to do so.

Certainly, the doctrine of election and predestination is found in Scripture.

There are concepts of election and predestination in Scriptures, certainly, but Calvin’s doctrines built from their excised fragments are not consistent with Scripture as a whole. The doctrines are figments of his very active and very intellectual imagination.

you show that you were a former elder. I didn’t realize Catholics allowed women elders. Interesting…

In the Latin Church, the Greek term “presbyter” was contracted into the word “priest”. Our presbtyters are priests.

I'm not sure how an authority to preach has anything to do with the thread topic.

The concepts on these topics developed by Calvin exist because he departed from the authorities appointed by Christ, and appointed himself as rightful authority to interpret the Scriptures.

I don't want to derail this thread with a discussion of apostolic succession verses sola scriptura.

It always seems to boil down to that, does it not?

If it's normative that the early church baptized their infants, and if infant baptism is true, then the early church infants were born from above and became members of the church apart from their own free will.  Therefore, we can conclude that the concept of coming to Christ on your own free will  is a new belief in the church.

Well, I guess you can conclude that, since you are a Calvanist, and it seems customary to make these sorts of wild unsubstantiated leaps of crooked logic.

Such a conclusion is not warranted, though. No adults were ever baptized without making a profession of faith. I suppose you would say they were puppeted on strings to recite the Apostles creed? Perhaps God spoke the words of the creed through their mouths as He spoke through the mouth of Balaam’s ***?

 

[Christian_Unity]

I pray God will be merciful, that being said find me one scriptural reference to the age of accountability. I fear it is entirely possible for the soul of the unborn still tainted by original sin not to find eternal glory. Still I have hope that perhaps they will find themselves with the Saints and martyrs in heaven.

I don’t believe in the age of accountability. I believe in original sin in which infants immediate need Christ due to the one act of disobedience of Adam.

 

[Christian_Unity]

First you need to answer this question posed earlier: How is it that you believe that Cornelius received this regeneration?

By reading the account in context in Acts 10.

 

[Christian_Unity]

?

It’s very difficult for me to follow your postings in the way you respond. I just wanted to let you know in case you wonder why I don’t seem to be responding to your postings. For me, it’s easier to follow a complete thought convesation verses chopping everything up.

 

[PRmerger]

By reading the account in context in Acts 10.

Could you please be more specific?

When was it that Cornelius became regenerated?

 

[guanophore]

LOL, you are making this too easy for me brother. Cornelius was born from above before he was baptized. Here is the end of the Cornelius account:

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. - Acts 10

Ok, good. We are standing on common ground to begin.

But let us go back to the beginning of this passage:

Acts 10:1-5
10:1 At Caesare’a there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror, and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

If, as Calvin proposes, the unregenerate man “runs away from God”, and we agree that Cornelius was not yet “born again” how is it that he sought the Lord? And more so, how is it that he was able to do anything pleasing to God?

I think you can see how this passage creates complication for Calvin’s notion of total depravity. It does support, on the other hand, the Catholic view that the human person was wounded by the Fall, but still capable of responding to prevenient (drawing) grace that brings all to Christ.

Acts 17:22-28

22 So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op’agus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for

‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

as even some of your poets have said,

‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

The Apostles taught that we are made in the image and likeness of God, and that we have an inward desire to seek after Him, to find Him. This desire was wounded, but remains within man, even while man is separated from God by sins (dead in sins).

That desire, given by God, in man to seek God must be meet with grace, so that grace,through faith, can accomplish salvation.

 

[KathleenGee]

In response to the concern this thread was leading to fatalism, I think of the Orthodox who are live out so deeply the mystery of faith.

I recall how some of the reformers went to the Orthodox to pull out and join them, and they were appalled at such a belief system. The Orthodox can attest to all 12 apostles involved in founding ancient churches.

My faith causes me to look all humanity as being graced by hope, each day we live, each minute we exist, the Lord is waiting for us…the life of Christ does not speak of fatalism but the Risen Lord ‘draws all men to Himself’.

If you follow a few men and not the apostolic faith in Church, you are not going to get a full deck. That is simply all there is to it.

You will get the Cross without the Person on it. No Word Made Flesh.

 

[Christian_Unity]

In response to the concern this thread was leading to fatalism, I think of the Orthodox who are live out so deeply the mystery of faith.

I recall how some of the reformers went to the Orthodox to pull out and join them, and they were appalled at such a belief system. The Orthodox can attest to all 12 apostles involved in founding ancient churches.

My faith causes me to look all humanity as being graced by hope, each day we live, each minute we exist, the Lord is waiting for us…the life of Christ does not speak of fatalism but the Risen Lord ‘draws all men to Himself’.

If you follow a few men and not the apostolic faith in Church, you are not going to get a full deck. That is simply all there is to it.

You will get the Cross without the Person on it. No Word Made Flesh.

It might help to understand that through the history of Protestantism, it is the Reformed Calvinistic circles that were known for their Evangelist and missionaries over the other Protestant circles. The greater Protestant theologians, Evangelist and missionaries were quite Reformed in theology. Heck, this country is rooted in Calvinism with the Pilgrims and Puritans. I even think Anglicans have a strong view on predestination too when reading their 39 articles of Faith. Martin Luther taught predestination in greater force than John Calvin too. It is wise to identify fatalism with hyper-Calvinism and not biblical Calvinism in our discussion.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Ok, good. We are standing on common ground to begin.

But let us go back to the beginning of this passage:

Acts 10:1-5
10:1 At Caesare’a there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror, and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

If, as Calvin proposes, the unregenerate man “runs away from God”, and we agree that Cornelius was not yet “born again” how is it that he sought the Lord? And more so, how is it that he was able to do anything pleasing to God?

I think you can see how this passage creates complication for Calvin’s notion of total depravity. It does support, on the other hand, the Catholic view that the human person was wounded by the Fall, but still capable of responding to prevenient (drawing) grace that brings all to Christ.

Acts 17:22-28

22 So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op’agus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for

‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

as even some of your poets have said,

‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

The Apostles taught that we are made in the image and likeness of God, and that we have an inward desire to seek after Him, to find Him. This desire was wounded, but remains within man, even while man is separated from God by sins (dead in sins).

That desire, given by God, in man to seek God must be meet with grace, so that grace,through faith, can accomplish salvation.

Thanks for changing your format in your responses. It is a big help in our continual discussion. Catholic theology is very good. I’ll respond later in the day.

 

[Radyj]

It might help to understand that through the history of Protestantism, it is the Reformed Calvinistic circles that were known for their Evangelist and missionaries over the other Protestant circles. The greater Protestant theologians, Evangelist and missionaries were quite Reformed in theology. Heck, this country is rooted in Calvinism with the Pilgrims and Puritans. I even think Anglicans have a strong view on predestination too when reading their 39 articles of Faith. Martin Luther taught predestination in greater force than John Calvin too. It is wise to identify fatalism with hyper-Calvinism and not biblical Calvinism in our discussion.

I would argue that Calvinism is not biblical, to quote one or two verses from holy scripture, with disregard to the rest of the text is not biblical. Take for instance the vine and the branches, is it possible to be part of the true vine that is Christ, to be part of the body of Christ that is the church without having the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, yet God the Father, who is the vine tender will remove from the vine all branches that do not bear fruit. We are commanded to persevere, to run a good race. Christ died for the sins of all [BIBLEDRB]1 peter 3:18[/BIBLEDRB] if Christ died for the just and the unjust then how, are the unjust not saved? they reject the Spirit, they would rather live in human nature.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I would argue that Calvinism is not biblical, to quote one or two verses from holy scripture, with disregard to the rest of the text is not biblical. Take for instance the vine and the branches, is it possible to be part of the true vine that is Christ, to be part of the body of Christ that is the church without having the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, yet God the Father, who is the vine tender will remove from the vine all branches that do not bear fruit. We are commanded to persevere, to run a good race. Christ died for the sins of all [BIBLEDRB]1 peter 3:18[/BIBLEDRB] if Christ died for the just and the unjust then how, are the unjust not saved? they reject the Spirit, they would rather live in human nature.

We can get into all of Scripture revelation in regards to these issues. However, the Catholic Fatih is not based on Scripture revelation alone, correct?

If Christ died for the sins of all, then why are not all men saved? Christ either paid for the sins for all mankind at the cross, or he did not. It is a clear command of God to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Unbelief in the gospel is a sin.

 

[PRmerger]

We can get into all of Scripture revelation in regards to these issues. However, the Catholic Fatih is not based on Scripture revelation alone, correct?

Yes. You are correct here CU.

Christ either paid for the sins for all mankind at the cross, or he did not. It is a clear command of God to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Unbelief in the gospel is a sin.

This is very Catholic of you to say.