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onemangang
Guest
Wondering by your post here, do you believe in a penal substitution form of atonement?
Are you aware that Catholics don’t?
Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...
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Are you aware that Catholics don’t?
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
G
guanophore
Guest
Good point. All of humanity is on the conveyor belt. Jesus pays the price, but not everyone gets into the bag and goes home with Him.
G
guanophore
Guest
I think that a vast majority of Catholics are very poorly catechized in their faith, and as a result, most of them do espouse a Pelagian attitude.
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onemangang
Guest
I second that, but that’s the big difference between Catholics and non-catholic Christians.
Often Catholics are poorly catechized, but they can explore the truth of the faith, via: bible studies, lectors, catachism of the Catholic Church, RCIA, spiritual guide ie: preist or deacon!
Many non-catholic Christians are indoctrinated into heterodoxy, or out right heresy!
We as Catholics can atleast turn towards the truth, that has been revealed through the Church!
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Christian_Unity
Guest
Good morning Kathleen,
I think you are quoting from a verse in John, correct? I think in context, you might see that verse differently. Do you mind revisitng that verse again?
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
You guys have great responses and postings. There are way too many to respond to right now since I’m out the door in a few seconds. Here is a verse to reflect upon. Again, what is the biblical understanding of propitiation? Did Christ propitiate our sins, if so… what does that mean? In Christ propitiated to sins for the whole world, then surley all will be saved. Or maybe the whole world means something than what you originally believe it to mean?
1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
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guanophore
Guest
The Catholic faith is not a “bible based” faith, in the modern evangelical sense of the word. Our faith does not emanate from a cobbling of Scripture verses that formulate a systematc theology. Instead, our faith is handed down to us from the Apostles, a faith that was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. For us, the NT reflects what the Church believes and teaches, but is not the source of that faith. Jesus is the Source.
So when you ask about the “biblical understanding” of a concept, it is important to understand that Catholics read the scriptures through the lens of the One Faith, and our understanding is shaped and informed by the same faith that produced those scriptures.
According to that faith, Christ paid the price for all of humanity by bearing the sins of the world to the cross. And yet, we will both agree that not all will be saved, as is contained in our daily Liturgy, His blood was poured out for “Many” (not all will wash their robes in HIs blood and take advantage of the redeption He has provided).
In His sovereignty, He has ordained that His creatures would choose whether they desire to remain with Him for eternity, or to be separated from Him. This is the Law of Love, that gives freedom to it’s object.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
Thansk for sharing that Catholic education. Do you know the official Catholic view or understanding of the word “propitiation” found in the Bible?
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Radyj
Guest
To placate or appease an angry person. It is one of the three fruits of every good work; the others are impetration and merit. It is also one of the four ends of the Sacrifice of the Mass, whose propitiatory power extends to sin, to satisfaction and punishment for the living, and to punishment for the dead. (Etym. Latin propitiare, to render favorable.)
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guanophore
Guest
Catholic Catechism
620 Our salvation flows from God’s initiative of love for us, because “he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (I Jn 4:10). “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).
621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).
622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mt 20:28), that is, he “loved [his own] to the end” (Jn 13:1), so that they might be “ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers” (I Pt 1:18).
623 By his loving obedience to the Father, “unto death, even death on a cross” (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfills the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will “make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities” (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19).
457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:
604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: “In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.” God “shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
The Church rarely defines specific words or verses in Scripture, since the method is to understand what is written in the light of the Teachings of the Church. Above are passages from Catechism on the issue. Catechism means “to faithfully echo”, and has been used by the Church in making disciples since the early centuries.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
Do you mind supplying your source?
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guanophore
Guest
We do not believe in substitutionary death, meaning that He offered himself as a substitute for the penalty that belonged to us. If that were the case He would burn in hell for eternity.
We also do not believe in the idea that God poured His wrath upon His own Son (the wrath that we and our sins deserve).
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Christian_Unity
Guest
God’s wrath is a major theme in Scripture. What is the Catholic view of the wrath of God One of my favoite verses is found in Romans 5 which speaks of wrath and reconcilation:
Romans 5
Peace with God Through Faith
5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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guanophore
Guest
Indeed.
These are Catholic verses, written by a Catholic, for Catholics.
When you read them, you understand them through the lens of Calvanism, I think that is why you post verses like the one you did in the other thread without any comment. To you, it clearly speaks to the doctrine you have already espoused. When Catholics read it, we undestand it through the lens of Sacred Tradition - the Doctrine of the Apostles that we have already espoused.
As you can see, the text says that we are saved by Him from the wrath of God, but not that God poured out all His wrath on Him. The doctrine of the divine perichoresis rules out this notion.
By this is signified the reciprocal inexistence and compenetration of the Three Persons. The term perichoresis is first used by St. John Damascene. Yet the doctrine is found much earlier.
None of this says that Jesus’ sacrifice was “substitutionary”, or that God’s “wrath” was poured upon the Son. Neither does it say that we are righteous because we were legally declared to be so.
His payment for our sins, propitation/expiation, was paid through His perfect life and perfect death. And yet, it is a mystery to us.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
I’m not sure if you play poker, but here on Catholic Answers, how come I feel that we are playing poker with a stacked deck? Every time I seem to have a winning hand, you pull out a wild card hiding in your pocket. Do you really believe the Old Testament Scriptures were written by Catholics and for Catholics?Indeed.
These are Catholic verses, written by a Catholic, for Catholics.
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, actually we do. We believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of all God’s revelation of Himself to mankind, and thus, He fulfills all that came before Him in the law and the prophets.I’m not sure if you play poker, but here on Catholic Answers, how come I feel that we are playing poker with a stacked deck? Every time I seem to have a winning hand, you pull out a wild card hiding in your pocket. Do you really believe the Old Testament Scriptures were written by Catholics and for Catholics?
But in this case, I was referring specifically to the passages you posted out of Romans. You did not add any “argument” to them. It seems to me that you believe that the verses themselves support your view, so that if we just read them, we will understand them the way you have been taught. But when we read them, we understand them differently, because we look at them through the lens of Sacred Tradition - what the Apostles believed and taught.
You have posted nothing that would pursuade me that Jesus’ death was “substitutionary” or that he was the focus of the Father’s “wrath” on our behalf.
But let me not stray from the topic. Are we not to be discussing Pelagianism here? Were you not going to convince us of how Catholicism, like Arminiansim, is “semi-Pelagian”?
Why and how do our works get us to heaven? Because they are no longer our works, but His!
Gal 2:20-21
0 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
It is God, at work within us, who wills and does His good pleasure in and through us. Faith, working through love, faith that shows itself in works.
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PRmerger
Guest
Catholics here are playing the trump card of Truth, CU. There is no stacking of decks.I’m not sure if you play poker, but here on Catholic Answers, how come I feel that we are playing poker with a stacked deck? Every time I seem to have a winning hand, you pull out a wild card hiding in your pocket. Do you really believe the Old Testament Scriptures were written by Catholics and for Catholics?
The problem is you think you’ve got a winner with a flush. Catholics, using the full deck of cards that was given to us by Christ, come up with a royal flush every time.
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Radyj
Guest
A skeptic with the truth is much like a dog chasing a car, what will they do when they catch it?I’m not sure if you play poker, but here on Catholic Answers, how come I feel that we are playing poker with a stacked deck? Every time I seem to have a winning hand, you pull out a wild card hiding in your pocket. Do you really believe the Old Testament Scriptures were written by Catholics and for Catholics?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Wild card…just look at the other thread out there on the different religious orders, congregations and rites.
But I was wanting to ask you Christian Unity, and by the way, I deeply appreciate your participation here at CAF.
I would like you to clarify again…have you studied Protestant doctrines in class or through individual, private reading…and have you ever taken any classes on doctrines and church history by Catholic instructors. I was hearing yesterday on EWTN about a convert who was working on 2 Masters for the Presbyterian Church.
He began to study early church history and the early church Fathers. He saw their teachings pointing to Catholicism. The program yesterday likewise answered some of my own particular questions about the papacy. The convert was well aware of some immoral popes in our history and he could not see how they could be infallible, one in particular…my spelling and from what I could hear…Pope ‘Honorious’?..
The inquirer went to a Slovakian Dominican priest across the San Francisco Bay to get another take. The priest went upstairs and brought down a number of books…in Greek…The inquirer took a particular writing of Honorious and brought it to someone who could most accurately translate from Greek to English.
In it, he found that immoral pope wrote infallibly about the will of God, that although Christ had two wills – human and divine – He always sought the one will of God the Father.
This communion of one will, in spite of Christ’s two natures, one divine and one human, also reflects this communion of the Holy Trinity that we ourselves grow into at Mass each day bringing closer to God…if we do not commit mortal sin. The sacrament of penance absolves and restores us to this essential entrance into the eternal presence of God…and our lifelong journey to union with Him in heaven some day.
Subsequently, this communion we seek is not of our making but of our faith and our participation of the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist at Mass where we are also fed the Word of God.
The other is that studying Catholic doctrine in RCIA, you are working under the pastor who has special grace to guide souls, and you are also present at our church gathering…meaning, that in Catholicism, the Bible is not an individual book, but is a Church book meant to be studied together.
When different points or lack of clarities are brought to the open to be discussed, we pray and discern…and all together the Holy Spirit guides us and affirms the correct understanding…that always provides us life in the Spirit and this wonderful communion of one heart and one mind…certainty without self righteousness.
Life in Christ is not about being ‘right.’ There is alot of grace to study in a public Catholic place to question doctrines, to seek the truth that are in the spirit of the Church that enable you to understand much better what is meant.
On CAF and other sites, you may get correct answers, but many times people are coming in from different angles, that all point to the same truth, but for other people on the outside, they may think they are hearing different answers.
And yes, in spite of his immorality, Pope Honorious did teach infallibly in spite of himself, on the divine will of God and Christ’s two wills.
But I was wanting to ask you Christian Unity, and by the way, I deeply appreciate your participation here at CAF.
I would like you to clarify again…have you studied Protestant doctrines in class or through individual, private reading…and have you ever taken any classes on doctrines and church history by Catholic instructors. I was hearing yesterday on EWTN about a convert who was working on 2 Masters for the Presbyterian Church.
He began to study early church history and the early church Fathers. He saw their teachings pointing to Catholicism. The program yesterday likewise answered some of my own particular questions about the papacy. The convert was well aware of some immoral popes in our history and he could not see how they could be infallible, one in particular…my spelling and from what I could hear…Pope ‘Honorious’?..
The inquirer went to a Slovakian Dominican priest across the San Francisco Bay to get another take. The priest went upstairs and brought down a number of books…in Greek…The inquirer took a particular writing of Honorious and brought it to someone who could most accurately translate from Greek to English.
In it, he found that immoral pope wrote infallibly about the will of God, that although Christ had two wills – human and divine – He always sought the one will of God the Father.
This communion of one will, in spite of Christ’s two natures, one divine and one human, also reflects this communion of the Holy Trinity that we ourselves grow into at Mass each day bringing closer to God…if we do not commit mortal sin. The sacrament of penance absolves and restores us to this essential entrance into the eternal presence of God…and our lifelong journey to union with Him in heaven some day.
Subsequently, this communion we seek is not of our making but of our faith and our participation of the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist at Mass where we are also fed the Word of God.
The other is that studying Catholic doctrine in RCIA, you are working under the pastor who has special grace to guide souls, and you are also present at our church gathering…meaning, that in Catholicism, the Bible is not an individual book, but is a Church book meant to be studied together.
When different points or lack of clarities are brought to the open to be discussed, we pray and discern…and all together the Holy Spirit guides us and affirms the correct understanding…that always provides us life in the Spirit and this wonderful communion of one heart and one mind…certainty without self righteousness.
Life in Christ is not about being ‘right.’ There is alot of grace to study in a public Catholic place to question doctrines, to seek the truth that are in the spirit of the Church that enable you to understand much better what is meant.
On CAF and other sites, you may get correct answers, but many times people are coming in from different angles, that all point to the same truth, but for other people on the outside, they may think they are hearing different answers.
And yes, in spite of his immorality, Pope Honorious did teach infallibly in spite of himself, on the divine will of God and Christ’s two wills.
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