Predestination in Islam

[Agabriel]

I have seen this brought up many times in different threads and the muslims never address it.

Basically, predestination takes away free will since no matter what one does - one is already predestined to heaven or hell. And per Muhammad, it seems that if one is a woman then the odds are you are predestined to go to hell. Muhammad said most women go to hell.

1.Do suicide bombers bypass predestination? Where does it say that in the Quran?

2.Does giving one’s children to be suicide bombers bypass predestination? Where does it say that in the Quran?

3.How much, or what kinds, of ‘good works’ do muslims have to do and do they bypass predestination? Where does it say that in the Quran?

The question is, when does a Muslim know that they have done enough “good works” to merit entry into paradise? What if you sincerely dedicated your life to good works but happened to be one of those destined for hell?

4.Does going to the Hajj and worshiping the Black Rock bypass predestination? I read where it has consciousness and speaks for muslims on Judgement Day? Where does it say that in the Quran?

5.Why do they call anyone else idolators when they worship a black rock?

If God had already assigned people to end up in hell why would he send the prophets to invite people to accept Him if they couldn’t go to heaven anyway?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

Salaam/ Peace

…Why do they call anyone else idolators when they worship a black rock?

Muslims worship God only. If u really want answers from Muslims , then pl. ask questions sincerely ; don’t try to provoke us unnecessarily.

 

[Agabriel]

Then tell us about predestination.

From I have read your own texts provoke you.

 

[Agabriel]

‘the Black Stone circled in Mecca is conscious and will testify for and against them on Judgment Day. The physical manifestation of Allah, in the form of a conscience stone, is an important core of Muslims’ connection with deity.’

Now, why would so many people go and visit a rock?

 

[chrisse]

Here is a link to a audio file on predestination in Islam. Mentions many verses and hadiths. And yes, allah has created us as unbelievers and to commit shirk so his believers can slaughter us before allah throws us into hellfire

If you don’t want to register but want to see it, I can get you his website where it is as well, or it may be on youtube.

Al-Islam qur’an - official, authoriative from Saudi Arabia

 

[Agabriel]

Here is a link to a audio file on predestination in Islam. Mentions many verses and hadiths. And yes, allah has created us as unbelievers and to commit shirk so his believers can slaughter us before allah throws us into hellfire

If you don’t want to register but want to see it, I can get you his website where it is as well, or it may be on youtube.

Al-Islam qur’an - official, authoriative from Saudi Arabia

Now I see why they are so ashamed of telling us about predestination in islam!

The cruelty of Allah from their own Quran is certainly evident. All this ‘lovey dovey’ junk from them is just that - junk.

And basically it voids out Muhammed and Satan and their Quran!

 

[Agabriel]

It seems that muslims want it both ways - predestination and to be judged on their deeds (which are questionable if they are allowed to be deceitful, and can do anything to non-muslims such as torture and kill them, etc).

The 81st surah begins as the 80th ends. Qur’an 81:1 “When the sun is wound round and its light is overthrown; When the stars fall; When the mountains vanish like a mirage; When the pregnant she-camels are neglected; When the wild beasts are herded together; When the oceans become a blazing fire or overflow; When the souls are sorted out and joined with their bodies [not plucked away as we read earlier]; When the female buried alive, is questioned - for what crime she was killed?” We remain mired in the prophet’s favorite subject, the Day of Doom. Qur’an 81:10 “When the pages are laid open; When heaven is stripped off and torn away; When the Hell Fire is lighted and the Blazing Fire is kindled to fierce heat; When the Garden of Bliss is brought near. (Then) every person will know what he has brought.” Sorry Islam, but you can’t have it both ways. Allah can’t predestine men as he did in the previous surah and then say that their fate is based upon their deeds. This is an irreconcilable contradiction. It confirms that the author wasn’t rational.

 

[Submission]

‘the Black Stone circled in Mecca is conscious and will testify for and against them on Judgment Day. The physical manifestation of Allah, in the form of a conscience stone, is an important core of Muslims’ connection with deity.’

Now, why would so many people go and visit a rock?

Aslamu Alaikum (Peace be upon you),

You are getting the whole concept wrong there, let me point out a hadith which states that we do not worship anyone/anything except Allah.

Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, there is a hadith (tradition), attributed to the illustrious companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Umar (may Allah be pleased with him).

According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, “I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you”.

Coming to a conclusion, we simply touch or kiss the Black Stone in order to honor us with association with the great Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); it does not imply any reverence whatsoever.

 

[chrisse]

Aslamu Alaikum (Peace be upon you),

You are getting the whole concept wrong there, let me point out a hadith which states that we do not worship anyone/anything except Allah.

Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, there is a hadith (tradition), attributed to the illustrious companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Umar (may Allah be pleased with him).

Coming to a conclusion, we simply touch or kiss the Black Stone in order to honor us with association with the great Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); it does not imply any reverence whatsoever.

Well, that’s an explanation for muslims today.

How do you explain mohammet’s worship of the black stone? He was a pagan (claimed to be arab), part of whose religion was worshipping this black stone. It appears he continued with this pagan worship.

Now, we have the satanic verses, where mohammet had revealed to him, when he was trying to win over the pagans, that the pagan allah’s daughters could also be worshipped. This pleased the pagans very much, and they submitted to mohammet.

However, the next day apparently, the jinn called Gabriel appeared and told mohammet that was a revelation from Satan. So after the pagans had submitted to mohammet, he reversed it.

The action of kissing the black stone was a specific ritual to the pagans in worship of the pagan allah, before the pagan allah became mohammet’s creator one-god.

 

[Agabriel]

Well, that’s an explanation for muslims today.

How do you explain mohammet’s worship of the black stone? He was a pagan (claimed to be arab), part of whose religion was worshipping this black stone. It appears he continued with this pagan worship.

Now, we have the satanic verses, where mohammet had revealed to him, when he was trying to win over the pagans, that the pagan allah’s daughters could also be worshipped. This pleased the pagans very much, and they submitted to mohammet.

However, the next day apparently, the jinn called Gabriel appeared and told mohammet that was a revelation from Satan. So after the pagans had submitted to mohammet, he reversed it.

The action of kissing the black stone was a specific ritual to the pagans in worship of the pagan allah, before the pagan allah became mohammet’s creator one-god.

that same article I posted in the first post of mine - it says the muslims will deny it.

So, who does one believe? An ex-muslim or a muslim who is told to deceive us about islam and the Quran?

And I also sent out a note to Ali Sina with a question about this. He is flooded with questions so the emails are screened so let us see if I get more of a response on this black rock thingee.

I would say that their behavior towards it is indeed worship. and their denial is so that they can continue to hate others for worshiping idols.

 

[chrisse]

that same article I posted in the first post of mine - it says the muslims will deny it.

So, who does one believe? An ex-muslim or a muslim who is told to deceive us about islam and the Quran?

And I also sent out a note to Ali Sina with a question about this. He is flooded with questions so the emails are screened so let us see if I get more of a response on this black rock thingee.

I would say that their behavior towards it is indeed worship. and their denial is so that they can continue to hate others for worshiping idols.

Oh I know their tactics, Agabriel. I take part in a Paltalk chat room (voice) where an ex-muslim who speaks perfect arabic (I believe he is from Saudi or thereabouts) has them twisting themselves. They deny at first, but then he provides the proof. Often it is in arabic and has not been translated, which is not a problem for him. It is sadly amusing to see them then turn from denial to justification for the behaviour

 

[Agabriel]

Wow, Ali Sina responded back to me already. (to anyone who doesn’t know - Ali Sina is an Iranian ex-muslim who has several books out.)

Here is the note that I sent to him. I took my name off of it for this post.

Here is the post concerning the black rock that is mentioned in the article, Islamic Hypocracies. Specifically, it is this line in the article, "We hear Muslims believe the Black Stone circled in Mecca is conscious and will testify for and against them on Judgment Day (though they will deny it, the stone and ritual is based on a pagan deity). " that I am questioning.

I am getting a response back from a muslim that they do not worship it. And they quoting me this hadith:
According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, “I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you”.

Is this one of those things where we can’t prove that muslims worship this stone or is there some way that it can be proved they worship it via their own texts.

Now, I will say I believe an ex-muslim over a muslim just due to the fact the muslims deceive us about their religion all the time. But, this time I really need more proof just because it has come down to they can back their assertion up with a text and I cannot prove they worship a black rock. (even though their behavior towards this stone proves they do indeed worship it)

Ali Sina’s response back to me and he not only say that they worship the black stone, but they worship the koran and mohammed:

As you said “their behavior towards this stone proves they do indeed worship it.” That is enough proof. By the same token they also worshp the book of Quran. Of course they deny it. But they deny lots of things that are true. Muslims have never been honest to themselves or others.

Muslims also worship Muhammad far more than Allah. Muslims can easily criticize God as several great Persian poets have done it and their poetries are read by every Muslim. But no one can ever criticize Muhammad. It is only then that they become unhinged and unleashed and act like savages.

You may share what I said with them. They may fool others but they know that they can’t fool the ex-Muslims

Regards

Ali Sina

I feel so honored that Mr. Sina responded back to me!

 

[chrisse]

Wow, Ali Sina responded back to me already. (to anyone who doesn’t know - Ali Sina is an Iranian ex-muslim who has several books out.)

Here is the note that I sent to him. I took my name off of it for this post.

Ali Sina’s response back to me and he not only say that they worship the black stone, but they worship the koran and mohammed:

I feel so honored that Mr. Sina responded back to me!

 

[dolphinlove]

Wow, Ali Sina responded back to me already. (to anyone who doesn’t know - Ali Sina is an Iranian ex-muslim who has several books out.)

Here is the note that I sent to him. I took my name off of it for this post.

Ali Sina’s response back to me and he not only say that they worship the black stone, but they worship the koran and mohammed:

I feel so honored that Mr. Sina responded back to me!

I think that was very good of him, he has confirmed what we know
I get a bit sick of their excuses now, like ‘you misinterpret me’ ‘you have to know arabic’ blah blah blah