Predestination/Judas Iscariot

[proteus]

Hello–

I’ve come here to pose a question that i have pondered for some time. Having left the church years ago, i thought it would be beneficial to ask someone with that perspective in an attempt to discover that which i may have hitherto missed. I’m sure this has been discussed before, but for my own sake i’d like to know how you all feel. I will try to be succinct.

The eventual betrayal of Christ was prophesied in the Old Testament (both in Psalms and Zechariah). And as Christians, you (and formerly I) are taught that only through Christ can one find salvation. That the sacrifice of Christ was a necessity. Assuming these things to be true, the question must be asked: How must Judas be judged?

On one hand, his actions are mortifying. He betrayed the son of God and allowed him to be butchered. On the other, Judas’ actions were necessary for our salvation. For whatever reason, Christ did not hand himself over. He had to be betrayed (as per the prophesy). This raises two dilemmas (for me, at least).

The first is perhaps the most common question. God knew of Judas’ actions prior to Judas physical existence. If his actions were indeed sinful, God’s judgement of Judas was made far before Judas was born. He could not avoid his destiny, because God had already communicated the prophesy. God cannot be proven wrong. Thus, Judas had no choice.

Secondly, even if we forego the prophesy, Judas actions are entirely necessary. We are taught that Christ is the lamb, sacrificed for OUR salvation, yes? How then could the actions of Judas be sinful? If it hadn’t been Judas, it could have been anyone. The same rules apply. Judas must be of some importance though , if not, why didn’t Christ hand HIMSELF over to be slaughtered? There is some meaning there.

These questions disturb all Western ideas of objective right and wrong. Morality, it seems, is left quite grey.

What say you?

 

[Benadam]

Even though Judas was predestined to betray God, the act of betrayal was not predetermined by God. God didn’t set someone up beforehand to betray Him but that someone was destined to do what he did nevertheless. That destiny doesn’t really exist in time though does it?

 

[tonyrey]

The eventual betrayal of Christ was prophesied in the Old Testament (both in Psalms and Zechariah). And as Christians, you (and formerly I) are taught that only through Christ can one find salvation. That the sacrifice of Christ was a necessity. Assuming these things to be true, the question must be asked: How must Judas be judged?

On one hand, his actions are mortifying. He betrayed the son of God and allowed him to be butchered. On the other, Judas’ actions were necessary for our salvation. For whatever reason, Christ did not hand himself over. He had to be betrayed (as per the prophesy). This raises two dilemmas (for me, at least).

The first is perhaps the most common question. God knew of Judas’ actions prior to Judas physical existence. If his actions were indeed sinful, God’s judgement of Judas was made far before Judas was born. He could not avoid his destiny, because God had already communicated the prophesy. God cannot be proven wrong. Thus, Judas had no choice…

There is a simple solution to your first problem. The prophecy does not specify a specific individual. There were thousands of men who could have decided to offer to follow Jesus. If Judas had not done so some one else could have taken his place…

Secondly, even if we forego the prophesy, Judas actions are entirely necessary. We are taught that Christ is the lamb, sacrificed for OUR salvation, yes? How then could the actions of Judas be sinful? If it hadn’t been Judas, it could have been anyone. The same rules apply. Judas must be of some importance though , if not, why didn’t Christ hand HIMSELF over to be slaughtered? There is some meaning there.

We do not know to what extent Judas, or anyone else for matter, is responsible for their decisions. There is good reason to believe he may have been possessed. Life is a struggle between good and evil. We know for a fact that the appearance of Jesus inspired enmity and hatred. We also know that Judas felt remorse and hanged himself. Would a devil have done that? The case is not so clear-cut as you imply…

 

[tonyrey]

The eventual betrayal of Christ was prophesied in the Old Testament (both in Psalms and Zechariah). And as Christians, you (and formerly I) are taught that only through Christ can one find salvation. That the sacrifice of Christ was a necessity. Assuming these things to be true, the question must be asked: How must Judas be judged?

On one hand, his actions are mortifying. He betrayed the son of God and allowed him to be butchered. On the other, Judas’ actions were necessary for our salvation. For whatever reason, Christ did not hand himself over. He had to be betrayed (as per the prophesy). This raises two dilemmas (for me, at least).

The first is perhaps the most common question. God knew of Judas’ actions prior to Judas physical existence. If his actions were indeed sinful, God’s judgement of Judas was made far before Judas was born. He could not avoid his destiny, because God had already communicated the prophesy. God cannot be proven wrong. Thus, Judas had no choice…

There is a simple solution to your first problem. The prophecy does not specify a specific individual. There were thousands of men who could have decided to offer to follow Jesus. If Judas had not done so some one else could have taken his place…

Secondly, even if we forego the prophesy, Judas actions are entirely necessary. We are taught that Christ is the lamb, sacrificed for OUR salvation, yes? How then could the actions of Judas be sinful? If it hadn’t been Judas, it could have been anyone. The same rules apply. Judas must be of some importance though , if not, why didn’t Christ hand HIMSELF over to be slaughtered? There is some meaning there.

We do not know to what extent Judas, Caiphas, Pilate or anyone else for matter, was responsible for his decisions. There is good reason to believe he may have been possessed. Life is a struggle between good and evil. We do know for a fact that the appearance of Jesus inspired enmity and hatred. We also know Judas felt remorse and hanged himself. Would a devil have done that? The case is not so clear-cut as you imply…

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Hello–

I’ve come here to pose a question that i have pondered for some time. Having left the church years ago, i thought it would be beneficial to ask someone with that perspective in an attempt to discover that which i may have hitherto missed. I’m sure this has been discussed before, but for my own sake i’d like to know how you all feel. I will try to be succinct.

The eventual betrayal of Christ was prophesied in the Old Testament (both in Psalms and Zechariah). And as Christians, you (and formerly I) are taught that only through Christ can one find salvation. That the sacrifice of Christ was a necessity. Assuming these things to be true, the question must be asked: How must Judas be judged?

On one hand, his actions are mortifying. He betrayed the son of God and allowed him to be butchered. On the other, Judas’ actions were necessary for our salvation. For whatever reason, Christ did not hand himself over. He had to be betrayed (as per the prophesy). This raises two dilemmas (for me, at least).

The first is perhaps the most common question. God knew of Judas’ actions prior to Judas physical existence. If his actions were indeed sinful, God’s judgement of Judas was made far before Judas was born. He could not avoid his destiny, because God had already communicated the prophesy. God cannot be proven wrong. Thus, Judas had no choice.

Secondly, even if we forego the prophesy, Judas actions are entirely necessary. We are taught that Christ is the lamb, sacrificed for OUR salvation, yes? How then could the actions of Judas be sinful? If it hadn’t been Judas, it could have been anyone. The same rules apply. Judas must be of some importance though , if not, why didn’t Christ hand HIMSELF over to be slaughtered? There is some meaning there.

These questions disturb all Western ideas of objective right and wrong. Morality, it seems, is left quite grey.

What say you?

The predestination / free will question perplexes me. Judas Iscariot is probably the most pointed example, but even the Apostles were “chosen” by Christ, not the other way around. “I chose you. You didn’t choose me.” This same statement can be made about any of us.

There is the business of Pharaoh being raised up so that God could show His power through Moses.

I had the peculiar experience of my father appearing in my room the night he died. The event ended with a terrifying scream on his part.

However during our “discussion” he said at one stage, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” I argued back, saying that couldn’t be right. He replied, “Oh, it’s right, all right. You can see that from here.”

However later on he also said, “I was willing!” (to be cruel and vindictive - the qualities for which he was condemned).

So it always involves free will. However my understanding is that unless a person somehow makes a decision for Christ (ignoring the question of a person’s underlying culture eg. an Indian in Hindu India), they in one sense cannot help being drawn into the devil’s shpere of influence. So in that respect, unless Christ “chooses them” in the same way He claimed to “choose” the apostles (eg. Why Matthew and not some other tax collector? Or Peter, and not some other fisherman?), they are on the outer.

I don’t understand it. I think Christ would have given Judas a divinely haunting look when He handed Judas the piece of bread (He’d have looked straight at him) which should have indicated to Judas that Christ knew precisely what he was up to. I’ve had what might called peculiar “looks” myself from others, which God is using to indicate He knows all about me. But Judas went ahead anyway.

It was his call. Yet in another fashion he was chosen for the role.

Don’t ask me. I believe both predestination and free will operate. Jeremiah claimed God told him He had predestined him to be a prophet to the nations even when he was in the womb. Jeremiah didn’t choose the role for himself. In fact I think he’d have been happier at times if someone else had the job. But just when he made up his mind to shut up and let God do His own speaking, the message kept burning in him.

In one sense, like my father, he “didn’t really have any choice”.

 

[tonyrey]

The predestination / free will question perplexes me. Judas Iscariot is probably the most pointed example, but even the Apostles were “chosen” by Christ, not the other way around. “I chose you. You didn’t choose me.” This same statement can be made about any of us.

The fact that we are chosen does not mean we will persevere until the end. The vacillations of St Peter are a good example of how our redemption is a co-operative enterprise. There was no guarantee that he would finish up as a martyr in Rome but he is also an example of how Christ gives us the grace we need to overcome the temptation to take the easy way out. It is impossible to know the extent to which we are responsible for either the good or evil we do. Psychology tells us we are extremely complex beings… and that is just from the natural point of view…

 

[Gift_from_God]

Jesus did know that Judas was going to betray him, but that is not predestination or a violation of free will because I know it’s going to get dark later, but I’m not causing it to happen

 

[proteus]

Jesus did know that Judas was going to betray him, but that is not predestination or a violation of free will because I know it’s going to get dark later, but I’m not causing it to happen

I believe that is a different story, though. You know that it will get dark because it has always gotten dark at the end of the day. The movement of celestial bodies is cyclical, and thus predictable. The actions of men, if they truly are free, cannot be predicted (if any of you are interested in quantum theory, please speak up. This has interesting repercussions here as well). A free man could avoid the prophesy, couldn’t he?

 

[proteus]

There is a simple solution to your first problem. The prophecy does not specify a specific individual. There were thousands of men who could have decided to offer to follow Jesus. If Judas had not done so some one else could have taken his place…

But does it matter who it was? The important part, it seems, is that someone was destined to do it. Whoever it ended up being, that person was fulfilling an important role, was he not? Regardless of that, as someone has pointed out, Christ chose Judas as his disciple. And Christ did not, for whatever reason, hand himself over to the Romans. And yet, Christ was the only one who knew all along what must be done. Still, he waited and allowed Judas to betray him. Why? Even if Christ didn’t know it was Judas who would betray him, he knew one of the disciples would, correct? Knowing that Christ surely loved his followers, why would he let one of his good friends make such a decision if it truly was sinful? He easily could have handed himself over. If the story as it is told is true, doesn’t it seem rather interesting the way things unfolded? This, as far as i’m concerned, is the most peculiar moment in Christianity. There must be meaning there, don’t you think?

 

[tonyrey]

I believe that is a different story, though. You know that it will get dark because it has always gotten dark at the end of the day. The movement of celestial bodies is cyclical, and thus predictable. The actions of men, if they truly are free, cannot be predicted.

It can be argued that if we are truly free our actions are more likely to be predictable. We are less likely to be swayed by every impulse that comes along. To a large extent we have become what we are as the result of our choices, goals and ideals. If we are noble (or ignoble) it is not accidental nor determined by our genes but due to our decisions. (Nobility would not be nobility if we were predestined to be noble.) An evil person lacks the integrity and self-control of a good person but his behaviour is sufficiently consistent to be predictable in most situations. On the other hand we never know when a good person may succumb to temptation. We don’t even know and fall from grace.

(if any of you are interested in quantum theory, please speak up. This has interesting repercussions here as well).

I don’t think quantum theory is relevant because free will implies a supernatural power. We are made in the image of God and share in His creativity and transcendence of the physical world.

A free man could avoid the prophesy, couldn’t he?

A free man could also choose to fulfil the prophecy! We don’t even know if Judas was aware of the prophecy. Even if he was he need not have applied it to himself. There are so many imponderables in this case…

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I believe that is a different story, though. You know that it will get dark because it has always gotten dark at the end of the day. The movement of celestial bodies is cyclical, and thus predictable. The actions of men, if they truly are free, cannot be predicted (if any of you are interested in quantum theory, please speak up. This has interesting repercussions here as well). A free man could avoid the prophesy, couldn’t he?

I don’t think quantum theory, chaos theory etc. comes into it when we’re talking about free will. If we took chaos theory to the limits there’d be no structure at all, and there obviously is structure.

Likewise our choices are not merely random. They are based on pre-existing circumstances - the brain we have, the circumstances we find ourselves in, and the moral training we’ve received to date are all factors implicit in our decisions.

I think atheists make too much of quantum theory in their postulations about free will. Our choices are not random.

 

[tonyrey]

On the other hand we never know when a good person may succumb to temptation. We don’t even know and fall from grace.
I/quote]Correction:

We don’t even know to what extent a person may be possessed or whether a person has fallen from a state of grace. It is not for us to judge anyone, let alone assume Judas or any particular person is in hell. His agony of remorse must have been unbearable for him to kill himself…

 

[Benadam]

Knowing that Christ surely loved his followers, why would he let one of his good friends make such a decision if it truly was sinful? He easily could have handed himself over. If the story as it is told is true, doesn’t it seem rather interesting the way things unfolded?

 

[AndrewRaZ]

Remember that God is outside of time: before the universe was created (and time is a part of the internal laws of the universal, not outside of the universe) God, existed. Therefore, God is “outside” the universe, and therefore outside of time. I’ve always simplified it in my mind as thinking of God as a four-dimensional being; He can see the entire timeline, from beginning to end, all at once. We however, being three-dimensional beings, only perceive instantaneous “cross-sections” of the fourth dimension. Of course, that’s an over simplification, because a four-dimensional being would exist inside the fourth dimension–time–not outside of it. Nevertheless, God knows everything that has and will happen, because he is infinite, and there is no beginning or end to him.

As for the idea of predestination, we know God is a loving God, who has revealed himself as a parent, a father. How many parents have offered their children a choice, only to have the child choose the “wrong” thing? A parent may say, “You can stay at home and have your meals provided for you, have a roof over your head, and never have to worry about anything, or you can go try to eke out your own existence by yourself.” And the child, being independent-minded, simply says, “I will take my chances on my own.” The parent may know ahead of time based on their previous relationship with the child how the child will choose, but that doesn’t mean the parent has ever forced the child to choose one way or another. Heck, the parent can do all they possibly can to convince, or “force” the child to choose one way or another, but in the end, the child will always make his or her own choices based on a variety of factors.

That brings in the next point, the often believed theory that Judas must be in hell for his betrayal, based on the magnitude of his crime, what Jesus said about it (“It would be better if he had never been born”), and Judas’ actions immediately after, i.e. his suicide.

Remember that Judas “just” had to repent of his sin, and he would be forgiven. However, he did not. Instead of repenting, he despaired. He despaired that his crime was so great that he could never be forgiven, and thus made himself greater than God, because he was unforgivable. He put bounds on God. But that is never true. God is greater than any sin, and will forgive any sin. Which is why I think many people believe that Judas is damned, because his last conscious decisions were those of despair, and homicide.

My personal belief is that his crime is terrible, possibly one of the worst imaginable, but I can’t really bring myself to think that Judas is in hell, but I can’t honestly think that anyone is in hell, though I know some souls must be. It’s just such a horrible thought that I can’t bring myself to honestly judge someone like that (fleeting thoughts aside). However, the church tells us we only know of the state of souls known as saints, and does not make any kind of judgment based on the state of souls that may or may not be in hell, because we can never know this, only God knows what is in our hearts. A number of things could have affected his culpability in that crime; his past actions could have numbed his conscience to the point where he no longer knew right and wrong; he could have been mentally ill; he was possessed by a demon. These actions could have reduced the severity of Judas’ crime. In his last moments, he could have realized how terrible was the weight of sin on his soul, and repented. The fact is we will never know. The church merely tells us “we have reason to hope” for the salvation of his soul.

My two cents. :twocents:

 

[Cristian_B]

It was written because it was going to happen, but it was not going to happen because it was written. The prophecies tell us the future, they do not make the future.

If it weren’t for Judas, Satan would’ve found other vessels to betray Jesus.

 

[miguel]

But does it matter who it was? The important part, it seems, is that someone was destined to do it. Whoever it ended up being, that person was fulfilling an important role, was he not? Regardless of that, as someone has pointed out, Christ chose Judas as his disciple. And Christ did not, for whatever reason, hand himself over to the Romans. And yet, Christ was the only one who knew all along what must be done. Still, he waited and allowed Judas to betray him. Why? Even if Christ didn’t know it was Judas who would betray him, he knew one of the disciples would, correct? Knowing that Christ surely loved his followers, why would he let one of his good friends make such a decision if it truly was sinful? He easily could have handed himself over. If the story as it is told is true, doesn’t it seem rather interesting the way things unfolded? This, as far as i’m concerned, is the most peculiar moment in Christianity. There must be meaning there, don’t you think?

Assuming that the betrayal was destined to happen, was the betrayal itself unforgiveable? I don’t think so. The despair and suicide that followed it probably was unforgiveable. Otherwise, why would Jesus have said it would have been better if Judas had not been born? But it didn’t necessarily have to play out like that. Remorse might also have lead to repentence.

 

[PJM]

The eventual betrayal of Christ was prophesied in the Old Testament (both in Psalms and Zechariah). And as Christians, you (and formerly I) are taught that only through Christ can one find salvation. That the sacrifice of Christ was a necessity. Assuming these things to be true, the question must be asked: How must Judas be judged?

ON one hand, his actions are mortifying. He betrayed the son of God and allowed him to be butchered. On the other, Judas’ actions were necessary for our salvation. For whatever reason, Christ did not hand himself over. He had to be betrayed (as per the prophesy). This raises two dilemmas (for me, at least).

The first is perhaps the most common question. God knew of Judas’ actions prior to Judas physical existence. If his actions were indeed sinful, God’s judgment of Judas was made far before Judas was born. He could not avoid his destiny, because God had already communicated the prophesy. God cannot be proven wrong. Thus, Judas had no choice.

Secondly, even if we forego the prophesy, Judas actions are entirely necessary. We are taught that Christ is the lamb, sacrificed for OUR salvation, yes? How then could the actions of Judas be sinful? If it hadn’t been Judas, it could have been anyone. The same rules apply. Judas must be of some importance though , if not, why didn’t Christ hand HIMSELF over to be slaughtered? There is some meaning there.

These questions disturb all Western ideas of objective right and wrong. Morality, it seems, is left quite grey.

What say you?

Dear friend in Christ,

Can we agree on this as an accurate definition of God’s Divine Nature?

"God is all and only everything Good; perfected."

From this premise which has to be true or God simply would not be God; we proceed.

The idea of “predestination” is not only wrong; it’s not even a slight possibility, as it requires two quite impossible realities.

First that God can do evil [predestination is an evil act.] Preknowledge in no way is the same as causing evil or sinful personal choices. Permitting an action that is evil, is NOT the cause of that act,

**Second ***The issue of humanities "mind, intellect and freewill; [all SPIRITUAL THINGS like God Himself], all though in God they are perfected, in man, not so much, come into necessary review.

Because these Spiritual Things can’t be “inherited,” passed on from parents to siblings, nor the result of evaluation, which requires “matter,” we can understand the source of these powerful gifts must originate from SPIRIT, and further because of there uniqueness and power, they must have been given for a specific purpose.

Because of space limitations, I will simply share that this purpose is singular, but by necessity, optional. We are to do good and avoid evil.

Humanity is specifically Created by God, to know, love, serve Him in this life, in order to enjoy the possibility of spending Eternity in God’s Presence. We were created to LOVE God who desires to be in a personal relationship with us.

But love is always a sacrifice of ones self, or it’s NOT love.

Where you are off-track is in not fully understanding God’s Nature. Because God gives humanity a mind, intellect and freewill, PRECISELY for the reasons noted, God simply cannot [not simply “will not,” but actually cannot], NOT PERMIT each and every “man” to choose FREELY to make right use of these gifts, or to DENY there right use.

One is at GREAT SPIRITUAL RISK, in assuming that God can predestine. God cannot!
**
God permits evil and our personal evil choices for two precise and constant reasons.**
**
First** to PERMIT “man” to exercise his mind and intellect in accord with man’s freewill. Thus exposing humanity to potential Grace, or sin? Possible sanctification or further exposing our base sinful nature. OUR PERSONAL CHOICE!
**
Second** for God’s Glorification. Which is evidenced by mans free choice for Good, resulting in Glory to God, or should man choose to do evil; God is still Glorified by PERMITTING man to act freely, even in opposition to God’s Divine will.

The fact that God KNOWS never means that God CAUSES, for God, by Divine and Perfectly Good Nature, simply can do no such thing.

You also miss the mark in assuming that **“God HAD TO” **choose this particular means of Salvation. NO! God did not HAVE TO, rather, God freely choose to.

God CREATED the Universe by “WILLING” it into existence. God Could have simply WILLED our Redemption, but choose not too. God too has a mind, intellect and freewill; but HIS ARE PERFECT.

Love and prayers,
Pat *

 

[tonyrey]

Assuming that the betrayal was destined to happen, was the betrayal itself unforgiveable? I don’t think so.

We cannot know whether a particular human decision is unforgivable because we cannot know to what extent a person is responsible for that particular decision.

The despair and suicide that followed it probably was unforgivable. Otherwise, why would Jesus have said it would have been better if Judas had not been born?

Because of the terrible remorse and anguish felt by Judas when he realised the full significance of what he had done. He knew that for all eternity he will be despised and reviled for his betrayal of his Master.

But it didn’t necessarily have to play out like that. Remorse might also have lead to repentance.

There again we cannot know whether Judas repented or simply felt remorse. When you feel remorse you also lose hope. Since he was dominated by despair he was probably compelled to kill himself without even considering the possibility of forgiveness. So his remorse would not be culpable.

 

[miguel]

We cannot know whether a particular human decision is unforgivable because we cannot know to what extent a person is responsible for that particular decision.

I guess you’re making a different point than me. I agree. Obviously, the less culpable a person is for a particular sin, the less need for forgiveness. As an example, if Judas wasn’t in his right mind when he committed suicide, then his culpability could have been reduced or even eliminated. And I think God is the right person to be judging that. That said, there also isn’t any scriptural indication that he wasn’t in his right mind. And Our Lord’s words about him don’t exactly give a warm fuzzy about his ultimate fate. I’m not saying with absolute certainty that Judas is in hell. And I realize Jesus didn’t say that explicitly either.

Because of the terrible remorse and anguish felt by Judas when he realised the full significance of what he had done. He knew that for all eternity he will be despised and reviled for his betrayal of his Master.

I don’t think it’s out of the question that Our Lord would have forgiven the betrayal if Judas would have repented. We Catholics believe in the forgiveness of sins.

When you feel remorse you also lose hope.

That’s one possibility. That seems to be true in the case of Judas. But remorse, or sorrow for sin, can also lead a person to hope in God’s mercy.

 

[tonyrey]

I guess you’re making a different point than me. I agree. Obviously, the less culpable a person is for a particular sin, the less need for forgiveness. As an example, if Judas wasn’t in his right mind when he committed suicide, then his culpability could have been reduced or even eliminated. And I think God is the right person to be judging that. That said, there also isn’t any scriptural indication that he wasn’t in his right mind. And Our Lord’s words about him don’t exactly give a warm fuzzy about his ultimate fate. I’m not saying with absolute certainty that Judas is in hell. And I realize Jesus didn’t say that explicitly either.
I don’t think it’s out of the question that Our Lord would have forgiven the betrayal if Judas would have repented. We Catholics believe in the forgiveness of sins.
That’s one possibility. That seems to be true in the case of Judas. But remorse, or sorrow for sin, can also lead a person to hope in God’s mercy.

There is another possibility we haven’t considered - that Judas was possessed. In the Gospels there are suggestions that the devil gave him the idea of betraying his Master. At all events we agree that the notion that he was predestined to be a traitor is not supported by the facts.