Predestination Judas Iscariot

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MockSock said:
Plus Christ has to die on the cross to fulfill the prophecies right back to Genesis. He might not have been executed if he had not been betrayed and handed over to the Jews.
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This right here is the answer. Judas did not have betray Christ, because Judas had free will.

However, Eve in Genesis also had free will. Had she not chosen sin, Jesus would never have had to become incarnate at all to die for our sins.

Jesus’ death is the direct result of all the sins we’ve done, or good deeds we’ve failed to do though our most grievous fault. God created us anyways, and structured the very universe to signal his love for us, timing the Star of Bethlehem to line up to announce his arrival to save us at the very dawn of time.
 
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I always felt as though Judas didn’t really have free will. It seemed liked Jesus kinda just chose him to be the betrayer. John 13:27 after Judas took the piece of bread Satan entered him. I wondered if he became possessed and didn’t really betray him on his own terms but was used as an instrument of Satan or God to betray him. I always wondered if when he came to his senses or after Satan left him he killed himself because of what he had done and he felt so bad about it (since he wouldn’t have betrayed him). I always wondered if he could have possibly ended up in heaven because of the remorse he felt but then he commited one last moral sin of suicide which would have put him in hell? Doesn’t seem fair or free willish to me… I’ve always personally struggled with this part of the story myself.
 
Judas I certainly had Free Will -
as did the Jewish Leadership who sentenced Jesus to death
bribed Judas leading to Jesus’ arrest,
along with handing Him over to the Romans to execute Him…

That said, Catholicism does not Teach that Judas Iscariot is definitely going to Hell.

_
 
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Council of Trent

CHAPTER XII - RASH PRESUMPTION OF PREDESTINATION IS TO BE AVOIDED
No one, moreover, so long as he lives this mortal life, ought in regard to the sacred mystery of divine predestination, so far presume as to state with absolute certainty that he is among the number of the predestined, as if it were true that the one justified either cannot sin any more, or, if he does sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance.
For except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God has chosen to Himself.

Canon 15
If anyone says that a man who is born again and justified is bound ex fide to believe that he is certainly in the number of the predestined, let him be anathema.

Canon 17
If anyone says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.
 
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thistle said:
It was not predestination but foreknowledge that God had. He knew Judas would be the betrayer.
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Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. (Act 4:27-28)
 
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Just Herod and the Romans?

All Throughout, The New Testament Clearly Draws a firm line with respect to those in the Jewish Leadership who Obeyed neither Moses nor the Messiah… nor God the Father!

Many NT passages clearly indicate and go even beyond what Jesus told Pilate
as those of the Jewish Leadership in the crowd demanded and demanded to Pilate:
"CRUCIFY HIM!"

Pilate found no fault - yet finally
  • the Chief Priests threatened Pilate with summoning Caesar against Pilate - aka “Blackmail”
SCRIPTURES

Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.”

When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, “Here is the man!”

As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”

But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”

The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. ""

Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting,
“If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.”

When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge’s seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14 It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.

“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.

But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”

“Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.

“We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.

Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.
 
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EndTimes said:
That said, Catholicism does not Teach that Judas Iscariot is definitely going to Hell.
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The Church does not who is in Hell because only God knows.
However, a person would have to be pretty naive to think Judas was not in Hell, especially after what said said:

Matt 26:24 The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born."

I don’t see how anybody could seriously wonder if Judas went to Hell.
He betrayed Jesus, killed himself, and Jesus said it would have been better if he had not been born.
 
Cruc3S1gnatus said:
I always felt as though Judas didn’t really have free will. It seemed liked Jesus kinda just chose him to be the betrayer. John 13:27 after Judas took the piece of bread Satan entered him. I wondered if he became possessed and didn’t really betray him on his own terms but was used as an instrument of Satan or God to betray him. I always wondered if when he came to his senses or after Satan left him he killed himself because of what he had done and he felt so bad about it (since he wouldn’t have betrayed him). I always wondered if he could have possibly ended up in heaven because of the remorse he felt but then he commited one last moral sin of suicide which would have put him in hell? Doesn’t seem fair or free willish to me… I’ve always personally struggled with this part of the story myself.
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This is exactly what I’m saying. Plus can suicide really be a mortal sin? CCC 1735 states “responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.” This is a question for another thread and maybe is not applicable here, but you see what I mean? It presents another problem. Are we to assume Judas Iscariot is in hell?
 
In the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Judas Iscariot it says:

" And though the circumstances of the death of the traitor give too much reason to fear the worst, the Sacred Text does not distinctly reject the possibility of real repentance. "
 
EndTimes said:
In the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Judas Iscariot it says:

" And though the circumstances of the death of the traitor give too much reason to fear the worst, the Sacred Text does not distinctly reject the possibility of real repentance. "
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When could he repent? He hanged himself. Did he repent in the nano second from falling till the rope killed him?
No serious person thinks Judas is not in Hell.
 
thistle said:
The Church teaches that nobody is predestined to go to Hell. Therefore I don’t see how Judas’ betrayal of Jesus could have been predestined.
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Clarification. People go to Heaven because God elects them and they cooperate. People go to Hell on the basis of their own merits and lack of cooperation (refusal) of grace. God knows who is going where eternally. But the point the Church emphasizes is the active role of the will of the reprobate in choosing to reject God and grace (and the active role in choosing to accept it).

If you’re familiar with the Arminian/Lutheran/Calvinism disputes about synergies and monergism for both the elect and reprobate, the Arminian position on cooperation with grace is the one most like the Catholic position.
 
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This forum is of course Catholicism… and never the potentially unChristian, Calvinism
 
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How can any here Know if - even at the very last moment before Dying, Judas repented or not?

Salvation is never the province of even so-called “Serious Persons”

God is the Judge of all hearts … and never us
 
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Holy Bible (Douay Rheims)
Acts 1:25 • ‘To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.’

Commentary:
Ver. 25. To his own place of perdition, which he brought himself to. Wi.
 
MockSock said:
This is exactly what I’m saying. Plus can suicide really be a mortal sin? CCC 1735 states “responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.” This is a question for another thread and maybe is not applicable here, but you see what I mean? It presents another problem. Are we to assume Judas Iscariot is in hell?
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Well you know according to the book of acts it sounds like Judas died of spontaneous combustion see acts 1:18. I really doubt think you go to hell for spontaneous combustion but maybe suicide. I believe until recently suicide was an autimatic ticket to hell… could it be posaible that Judas wasn’t even a person maybe he was just brought here to betray jesus then God annihilated him? Sounds crazy I know! I think about these things all the time though…
 
Biblical Commentary does not contain any level of Authority as does the Scriptures themselves…
 
Predestination is a big word. When Paul says we were predestined by God to be adopted sons & posses the Kingdom of God. He doesn’t mean that we will make it home. There’s many a slip twixt cup & lip.

God has absolutely prepared a place for each & every one of us. That is predestination.

But we each must work out our own salvation with fear & trembling.

Judas was not predestined to betray Jesus. But God did see the betrayal before time began. That’s not predestination.
 
I found the whole argumentation about ‘predestination’ troublesome no matter what degree it be in. Whether predestination in the singular or double qualification, it seems that either God raises up those to the detriment of others, or damn certain persons to the jubilation of others.
 
Austere said:
I found the whole argumentation about ‘predestination’ troublesome no matter what degree it be in. Whether predestination in the singular or double qualification, it seems that either God raises up those to the detriment of others, or damn certain persons to the jubilation of others.
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Not in Catholic thought, because the Catholic understanding of predestination always includes man’s free will AS WELL AS God’s sovereignty. So while God does predestine, he factors in man’s response to his grace. Reprobation is NEVER accepted as being without consideration of man’s foreseen demerits.

This is why while I like the Thomist position on election, the counterpart is not too pleasing because it’s effectively equal to double-predestination. I find the Molinist position to make better sense while still admitting it is likely not perfect.

But denying predestination outright is out of the question. It is Scriptural and a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church.
 
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