Predestination or not

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MT1926 said:
Let me know if something here doesn’t make sense so we can flush it out a little more.
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There is. Is God’s will eternal just as his knowledge? If not, it would contradict his eternal knowledge. Because, if he has perfect knowledge, and he does, then his will is supposed to be unchanged and constant, since change in his will would contradict his knowledge of things. I hope my question is clear so far.

Now, how are prayers working? Do they make changes in God’s will or not? If not, why do we pray? Thirdly, why pray for miracles and the deceased? For example, there are miraculous events, where one man prays, and God heals him. Why would he pray if God already willed to heal him anyways…? And secondly, why pray for the deceased, if God already knows they are doomed (some of them).
 
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Does God creates us according to his will? He surely does. God has his creations fully under His control. Does God have a plan? We are thought he does. Does he wills to create us in accordance with his plan? Probably so. Does he have knowledge of what his creations will and will not do? For sure yes. When he creates a soul he knows whether it will sin or not? Surely so, for he knows the qualities of that soul before he created it. Does he chooses qualities of a soul before creation? He does, I assume. Therefore, he created us with our qualities as they are, knowing we will sin. This sounds to me like predestination with no free will whatsoever.

Surely, you can argue - we choose options for ourselves. Though we choose them having only one option, which isn’t really choosing. For God knew us before he created us. He knew that I will, with my qualities and my “free will” be able to choose only one option.

Why do we pray then? We say to God in our prayer - Thy will be done. Surely he doesn’t need our prayer to execute his will. Our prayers are meaningless. His will be done with us praying or not, and for sure he knew that we will pray at this certain moment or not, but to Him it’s all the same.

Implications of this could be - oh, well, I will cheat on my wife, for I was created weak anyways, it’s not I can ask for God to give me help to resist my temptations, since he already knew when he created me that I will not be able to resist my temptations. He also created me willingly, so he created me sinful. I believe this cannot be true.
 
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This thought of mine is devastating for me, and it seems to me I can’t get rid of it. “The prayer of the lowly pierces the clouds”. God knows I prayed to calm my soul but I’m still disturbed by this thought. To me it’s disappointing, I wish it wasn’t. So what if my prayer pierce the clouds, when I’m doomed beforehand, no matter how hard I tried to do anything good. I understand that this is perhaps offending to God from my side, this thought of mine that is, but I just can’t get rid of it.
 
It’s a little more complicated than that. Predestination is prescribed for a select few, the likes of Noah, Moses, the Prophets, Jesus etc. They are fixed points. Their lives are fixed with a view to guiding humanity so that humanity improves, reflecting on Creation’s ability to improve itself. Whether humanity chooses to be guided is another matter. How individuals respond to the ‘fixed ones’ is up to them. Individuals have a choice. The ‘fixed ones’ do not.

In the end times the Creator will send one final ‘fixed one’, an ordinary person. He/she will judge the fate of humanity. He/she will try to convince humanity of their errors and the true way to see things. His/her voice will not be heard by most, only a few, who already sing his/her song. His/her judgement is the only thing not predestined. This is why it is called the ‘end-times’. Even the Creator doesn’t know if the ‘new-times’ will proceed with humanity or without. (Of course Creation will continue.) Only the final ‘fixed one’ can decide, the ultimate exercise of free-will.
 
Brittany said:
Having knowledge isn’t the same as willing something or causing it to happen.
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True, but in God these two must be in harmony. Because God cannot create something if he doesn’t have a will to create it. Nothing can happen against the will of God.
 
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Brittany said:
Foreknowledge and causation are not synonymous.
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True.
Brittany said:
God wills all to come to the truth, but God is not a tyrant. He will respect our decision.
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True. The problem is I cannot reconcile the two. God creates us and knows us before he created us, for he is our creator. He knows then before he created us that we will sin. Why then does he creates us as such?
 
From this it could be inferred God created some of us accidentally, which cannot be true.
 
For example, If I’m a potter (a reference from the Bible). I create a pot. Say I have great knowledge, strong will and I wish the pot to look good (I avoid being compared to God, so I avoid to say I have perfect knowledge, and I’m all powerful and so on). Anyhow, this pot of mine (but keep in mind God is omniscient and omnipotent and wishes us good, and I’m not) get’s broken in furnace. Either I didn’t know how to create a pot or I knew, but accidentally it broke. Perhaps it’s not the best example, but I hope it can serve the purpose.
 
DavidCro said:
Here’s the question that confuses me. The protestant theologians claim that when God created men, they predetermined which one goes to heaven and which one goes to hell. The Catholic Church has an opposing view, whit which you are, I believe, familiar with (free will, effective mercy etc.). However, I’m puzzled by few questions.

God is all knowing. Does God know if some men, having free will, are not able at all to achieve God’s mercy and go to heaven? If he knows that some men are unable to go to heaven, given their disposal of their free will, how is this not predestination?
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Haven’t read the entire thread and I apologize if this has already been said, but whenever this question of predestination is raised my first question is, if predestination does exist, why was there any need for Jesus Christ??
Just wondering…
 
DavidCro said:
Now, how are prayers working? Do they make changes in God’s will or not? If not, why do we pray? Thirdly, why pray for miracles and the deceased? For example, there are miraculous events, where one man prays, and God heals him. Why would he pray if God already willed to heal him anyways…? And secondly, why pray for the deceased, if God already knows they are doomed (some of them).
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When I spent my six years getting my MA in theology, one of my professors talked extensively about the fact that those spiritually advanced do not pray for such things, but only pray to grow closer to God, to know God’s will for them, etc. FWIW. This was in St. Francis de Sales’ book as well, Treatise On the Love of God.
 
joeybaggz said:
Haven’t read the entire thread and I apologize if this has already been said, but whenever this question of predestination is raised my first question is, if predestination does exist, why was there any need for Jesus Christ??
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Yes, of course. God revealed himself most fully in the person of Christ. That revelation was the most life-changing event the world has ever known.
 
Brittany said:
It serves what you are trying to explain, but what you are trying to explain is based on a misunderstanding. Us having sin is not at all due to God. We don’t have sin because God accidentally put sin in our lives, and we don’t have sin because God intentionally put sin in our lives. We have sin because we sin ourselves. Adam and Eve, our first parents, were created “very good.” They were in full communion with God. But when they sinned, they were stripped of that full communion with God. Since they no longer had that full communion with God, they could not pass it on to their children. This is what is known as original sin (something that is inherited, not done; it’s a state of being, not an action). We come into this world deprived of the full communion with God because our first parents lost that full communion with God and therefore couldn’t pass it on to us, so we are born without that communion and therefore have an inclination to sin. This is why we commit personal sins (sins that we actually do ourselves). This whole mess of sin and damnation came to us not by God’s hands, but by our own hands. When Adam and Eve chose to disobey God in the Garden, and therefore cursed all future generations with sin, that was their own doing. Not God’s.
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Adam and Eve did not have “full communion” with God. They did not have the Beatific Vision or could not have sinned.
 
DavidCro said:
For example, If I’m a potter (a reference from the Bible). I create a pot. Say I have great knowledge, strong will and I wish the pot to look good (I avoid being compared to God, so I avoid to say I have perfect knowledge, and I’m all powerful and so on). Anyhow, this pot of mine (but keep in mind God is omniscient and omnipotent and wishes us good, and I’m not) get’s broken in furnace. Either I didn’t know how to create a pot or I knew, but accidentally it broke. Perhaps it’s not the best example, but I hope it can serve the purpose.
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God knew Adam and Eve would sin. If that’s what you mean. I apologize, but I haven’t read the entire thread, either.
 
DavidCro said:
Why did he created them so then?
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Actually, he didn’t. He created them “in his image.” But God has free will, does he not? He is, after all, omnipotent. So, he created Adam and Eve with free will, but not omnipotent, of course.

It is very difficult to reconcile “predestination” and “foreknowledge” and to see that they are not the same thing, exactly. Even theologians have struggled with this. Please don’t let it stress you.
 
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Tell you what. I ain’t a theologian. I’m new here. I have no necessary knowledge to study it so deeply as my ambitions were forcing me. This morning bought myself spiritual exercises book of Saint Ignatius and talked to my parish priest. He and I had a pleasant conversation. Knowing that God created us to see his glory is a reason good enough for me. I understood today how worthless I am compared to God, and many other things. It actually feels good, knowing I have some purpose and role in this world. I’ll concentrate my life on other things, including prayer, and my future law career. God bless and thank you for explaining things to me. I leave theology to theologians. Good luck.
 
Sounds like you made good choices. God bless you on your journey.
 
Brittany said:
We come into this world deprived of the full communion with God because our first parents lost that full communion with God and therefore couldn’t pass it on to us, so we are born without that communion and therefore have an inclination to sin.
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Yet it is written in Matthew 19 14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

If children are ‘of the kingdom of heaven’ where there is no sin then are they not sinless? Jesus appears to be saying that we learn how to sin rather than being born in sin.
 
But you dont know what your acts or choices will be in the future. You are confusing what God knows vs what you know.
 
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