Predestination question

[AdvanceAlways]

Hello. I have a question about predestination. This was raised to me by a non-religious friend. I’ll start about saying that I know that the Church does teach predestination. (I’ve seen on CAF or from other Catholics who seem to deny any form of predestination.)

So what was posed to me is as follows:

Although God wills all men to be saved and gives all men the sufficient grace to be able to accept said grace and attain salvation, the fact remains that God has foreknowledge. In predestination he knows the course of action each of us will take.

So let’s say there’s a man who spends all his life as a faithful Catholic. He is a good person, he does good works and is strong in the faith. Since there is predestination, is it conceivable that despite the man’s life of holiness, he will still suffer hell? Now I know we obviously don’t believe in OSAS so that’s not what I’m trying to raise here. I guess the point my friend stumped me on is, if there is predestination, then what is the point? If God has willed an elect, why should people attend Church, etc if God already knows who his elect are? In the case of the man I used as example, even if he lives a faithful and Holy life, if he is not among God’s elect, he has no chance.

Or am I looking at this the wrong way? Is to live a Holy life signs of accepting God’s grace?

The first example came from my friend, this second one is something that I was thinking about.

Let’s say a priest meets someone is is not a believer and is actively proud of his sins. He rejects and hates God. The priest tells the man something of Christ. Through his own free will the man contemplated the priest’s words and turned his life to Christ and became Catholic. The man clearly used his own free will to accept a grace. If God knew that this man would angrily reject him and then have a conversion experience, how is that truly free will?

I had never thought about predestination before, so I’m a little confused about the whole matter. Thanks!

 

[AdvanceAlways]

A follow up I had to my second scenario is as follows:

When someone acts on a grace and seeks Christ, if God knew that was going to happen before creation, how is there any free will?

 

[Fr_Michael_Grac]

The answer is very simple indeed.

God’s foreknowledge of our actions does not equal predestination. God may know that we will act in a particular way, but that does not mean we did not freely choose to act in that way.

E.g. A father knows that his child will throw a temper tantrum when asked to clean up his or her room. The father asks the child to do this, even knowing the child will throw the tantrum. The child acts as predicted and is punished accordingly. The father did not “predestine” the child to throw a temper, the child is justly punished for his or her wrong behavior.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

The answer is very simple indeed.

God’s foreknowledge of our actions does not equal predestination. God may know that we will act in a particular way, but that does not mean we did not freely choose to act in that way.

E.g. A father knows that his child will throw a temper tantrum when asked to clean up his or her room. The father asks the child to do this, even knowing the child will throw the tantrum. The child acts as predicted and is punished accordingly. The father did not “predestine” the child to throw a temper, the child is justly punished for his or her wrong behavior.

Thank you for your reply, Father. I like the example you gave and it is certainly helpful but I’m still confused.

Would this statement be fair? - God wills all of us to Heaven and gives all the sufficient grace to achieve salvation. Some will accept it, some will not.

If this is a fair statement, and God knows of someone who will choose to reject his grace, how is that not double predestination? God knows that the individual will reject him and go to Hell. Yes, he had the grace to choose otherwise, but God knew that person would reject it. I’m sorry if I’m making this to be more complex than it is.

 

[soniel]

I kind of agree with you, AdvanceAlways. Maybe I don’t understand the complete teaching of the church or the full definition of predestination. I would like to add “Wouldn’t the prayers of all the faithful who were praying for someone be in vain for that person if the outcome was already known?”

 

[Fr_Michael_Grac]

The difference is that the concept of double predestination denies the ability of e person to choose. They cannot accept the grace of God. Catholics do not believe this. Aquinas says that everyone is predestined to go to heaven, we can only divert from that path by our own free choice. Thus every person in Hell has freely chosen to go there by their deliberate rejection of the will of God.

Hope this helps.

 

[capablanca911]

God gives everyone grace that is sufficient for salvation.
God does not give everyone grace that is efficacious for salvation.

This was helpful for me: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

 

[Fr_Michael_Grac]

I kind of agree with you, AdvanceAlways. Maybe I don’t understand the complete teaching of the church or the full definition of predestination. I would like to add “Wouldn’t the prayers of all the faithful who were praying for someone be in vain for that person if the outcome was already known?”

In a sense. God’s foreknowledge is mysterious to us. For the question of prayer, God has ordained from all eternity to grant certain goods when certain conditions have been met. Thus prayer is not about changing Gods mind. However it still makes a difference. We should be convinced that prayer works miracles.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

In a sense. God’s foreknowledge is mysterious to us. For the question of prayer, God has ordained from all eternity to grant certain goods when certain conditions have been met. Thus prayer is not about changing Gods mind. However it still makes a difference. We should be convinced that prayer works miracles.

I hadn’t ever thought about this from this angle before, that is, how predestination impact prayers for the deceased.

I’ve always prayed for the souls of the deceased but now I’m confused as to what the point is. I pray that the souls in purgatory can be with God in Heaven, but if God has predestined that soul, what is the point of my prayer? If God has already willed the fate of that soul, how does prayer have any bearing?

 

[NeedImprovement]

As Father Michael Grac just did, so also Fr. John Hardon S.J., in offering some definition of predestination concludes that this difficult tract remains somewhat a “mystery” :

From *Modern Catholic Dictionary ; Fr. John Hardon, S.J. *

PREDESTINATION.

In the widest sense it is every eternal decision of God; in a narrower sense it is the supernatural final destination of rational creatures; and in the strictest sense it is God’s eternal decision to assume certain rational creatures into heavenly glory. Predestination implies an act of the divine intellect and of the divine will. The first is foreknowledge, the second is predestination.

According to its efficacy in time, predestination is distinguished as incomplete or complete depending on whether it is to grace only or also to glory. Complete predestination is the divine preparation of grace in the present life and of glory in the life to come.

This doctrine is proposed by the ordinary and universal teaching of the Church as a truth of revelation. The reality of predestination is clearly attested by St. Paul: “They are the ones he chose especially long ago and intended to become true images of the Son, so that his Son, might be the eldest of many brothers. He called those he intended for this; those he called he justified and with those he justified he shared his glory.” (Romans 8:29-30). All elements of complete predestination are given: the activity of God’s mind and will, and the principal stages of its realization in time.

The main difficulty in the doctrine of predestination is whether God’s eternal decision has been taken with or without consideration of human freedom. Catholic teaching holds that predestination by God does not deny the human free will. Numerous theories have been offered on how to reconcile the two, but all admit with St. Paul (Romans 11:33) that predestination is an unfathomable mystery. (Etym. Latin praedestinatio, a determining beforehand.)

. . . I had never thought about predestination before, so I’m a little confused about the whole matter. Thanks!

Maybe we should all remain just a little confused about it.


Re the holy souls in Purgatory : God is willing, in the communion of saints to actually share his power and his Mercy with us - it’s an open invitation.

From St, Faustina’s diary Divine Mercy In My Soul. Reflection used for Day 8 of the Novena to The Divine Mercy :

“Today bring to Me The Souls Who Are Detained in Purgatory and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only know the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice.”

divine-mercy.ca/divine-mercy-novena/

 

[AdvanceAlways]

I think the bulk of my question is as follows:

If someone leads a faithful life, is a dedicated Catholic, and follows God’s laws to the best of his or her’s abilities but they aren’t among God’s predestined elect, and they suffer hell, how is that compatible with a just God?

 

[NeedImprovement]

How about this one ? Maybe it will make it a little clearer. It is taken from an interview with Father John Hardon S.J.

(Full article at the following link : therealpresence.org/archives/Protestantism/Protestantism_042.htm )

CTC: What does St. Paul mean when he talks about the early Christians being predestined?

Hardon: We have to be very careful to know what Protestantism, at its roots, means by predestination, and what we mean. There are two kinds of predestination. There is absolute predestination, in which God, irrespective of His forcing man’s cooperation with His grace, simply for His own greater glory, condemns some people to Hell while some people, from all eternity, are predestined for Heaven. We believe, not in absolute predestination, but in conditional predestination. Sure God, from all eternity, foresaw who was going to go to Heaven and who was going to go to Hell: He foresaw that some people would misuse their free will and resist His grace. So there is a mystery here. The mystery is why God allows those people even to come into existence.

But, we believe that God wants everybody to be saved. Some, though, will abuse their freedom. Those, then, are indeed not predestined for Heaven, but not because God didn’t give them grace, but because human beings did not freely cooperate with that grace.

 

[capablanca911]

I think the bulk of my question is as follows:

If someone leads a faithful life, is a dedicated Catholic, and follows God’s laws to the best of his or her’s abilities but they aren’t among God’s predestined elect, and they suffer hell, how is that compatible with a just God?

That’s like asking what would happen if a very round circle had four corners.

It is not only impossible theologically for a dedicated Catholic following God’s laws to be damned, but it is a logical impossibility as well.

What you are saying is how can someone be saved and not be saved.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

That’s like asking what would happen if a very round circle had four corners.

It is not only impossible theologically for a dedicated Catholic following God’s laws to be damned, but it is a logical impossibility as well.

What you are saying is how can someone be saved and not be saved.

This reply gets five gold stars! In all seriousness though, this helped a lot. So let me take one more swing at this.

We cannot say for sure who is saved (minus the Saints), but we can surmise that those who act on the graces provided by God are living in a state of justification.

God has given us all the ability to return to him. Yes, he knows who will accept that grace, but he is not causing anyone to go to hell.

This is complex stuff but makes a lot more sense now.

 

[Fr_Michael_Grac]

That’s like asking what would happen if a very round circle had four corners.

It is not only impossible theologically for a dedicated Catholic following God’s laws to be damned, but it is a logical impossibility as well.

What you are saying is how can someone be saved and not be saved.

Exactly:thumbsup:

 

[soniel]

All of these are good points and I’m sure Father is a lot wiser and knowledgable on this subject than I am. I guess I like to think that God and all the saints and whoever else is in heaven would be hoping that I make the right decisions, especially if there were many people praying for me. Will I be repremanded for thinking this way? Didn’t God “change His mind” in the Old Testament after people pleaded with Him? I’m also content to remaining a little confused on this matter!! Just a thought

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Ok, I feel like I’m running in circles right now but I have one final question/observation.

I think I have this pieced out but this question comes from the agnostic friend I was initially having this conversation with.

He asks, if that faithful Catholic is doing the things a faithful Catholic should do, and his fate has been predestined, how is he not merely a robot with no actual will? He also asks why should he bother worshiping God if his eternity is already known.

Again, I apologize for my circular questions.

 

[soniel]

I know what you’re saying, I’m going to sleep on that and comment in the morning! To add more confusion, if Mary was chosen before conception, and she could have said “no”, then what…?

 

[AdvanceAlways]

On another thread related to this topic, I saw the following posted in regards to predestination. Can anyone tell me if this is an accurate statement?

"The elect are those people who are “holy” right from their beginnings. We know, or have seen people like this. They move through life and you can tell there’s something about them that’s different: purer, holier. So, there are those born “elect,” and those who earn their way into the fold.

That’s the short and sweet of it."

 

[capablanca911]

He also asks why should he bother worshiping God if his eternity is already known.

To answer this question, think of an author writing a story. The author is more sovereign over his characters than God is over us in real life because the characters don’t have any free will, while in real life this is something we do have.

So anyway, in the story a house is being consumed by an unstoppable fire… The author’s destiny for his character is for him to not die. The only way that’s gonna happen is if the character gets out of the house. The ‘getting out of the house’ is essential to the character’s destiny. Even the author can’t make the character say…“Well, I know I’m destined to live so I’ll just stay in the house.” It doesn’t work like that. Not where the character lives anyway.

.