Predestination question

[Doghouse]

Thank you for your reply, Father. I like the example you gave and it is certainly helpful but I’m still confused.

Would this statement be fair? - God wills all of us to Heaven and gives all the sufficient grace to achieve salvation. Some will accept it, some will not.

If this is a fair statement, and God knows of someone who will choose to reject his grace, how is that not double predestination? God knows that the individual will reject him and go to Hell. Yes, he had the grace to choose otherwise, but God knew that person would reject it. I’m sorry if I’m making this to be more complex than it is.

Right, wrong or otherwise…this is my understanding as a lay Catholic…

God does indeed “foreknow” all that will ever be. That does not mean that I can possibly foreknow the very same thing. To me…it all looks like choice. This is the reality God has given me…an apparent choice from among options, using reason and a rational mind, free to choose what it decides. Never-mind that it is possible for God to foreknow every choice that I will ever make…this omniscience is not my reality (one of the reasons is because I am a temporal creature, and God is an eternal one…but that’s another thread, I suppose)

The error in a hard-line view and belief of predestination the way that some Christians express it (Calvinists/Presbyterians, as an example) is that there cannot be charity within predestined acts, because charity requires choice - doing the act of charity as opposed to the choice of not doing the act of charity…is what makes something “charitable”.

There is no love if there is no choice.

Love has to be a choice, freely made, from options available, by the mind (or heart) and willed into actions. The author of “predestination” as some view it (the elect and the reprobate) was John Calvin, who in a knee-jerk reaction to some abuses going on with an improper practice of indulgences, dismissed the requirement of charity from Christianity. He then followed this dismissal with an attempt at rationalization, which is from where we all get TULIP and hard-nosed Calvinism.

If love and charity were not a requirement and a value of Christianity, it means God has created us as pre-programmed, mindless mechanisms.

If I make a little robot, and program that robot to “love” me, does the robot really “love” me, or does it simply reflect what it has been programmed to do? No doubt that grace is required for us to “love”, but grace allows this to happen, and may influence the choice required. We are not reflecting programming when we love, we are making a free choice, utilizing a rational mind, and engaging a free will…a will that is equally enabled and empowered to choose wrongly, as well.

This freedom and this choice is what defines love. I choose this over all other candidates vying for my choice. God asks us to consider Him in this exercise.

That’s how I explain it. Calvinism, to me, is one of the graver more serious innovations of Christianity, because it abandons the very thing that is absolutely essential to understanding Christianity, and that thing is a faith in God working through charity.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

The quote that you blockquoted above your comments were block quotes from the second Council of Orange on July3,** 529 AD**.

Says the Catholic Encylopedia:

“The acts of the council, which were signed by the bishops, the pretorian prefect Liberius and seven other distinguished laymen, were forwarded to Rome and **approved by Boniface II on 25 January, 531 **(see BONIFACE II). They consequently enjoy œcumenical authority and are printed in Denzinger’s “Enchiridion Symbolorum” (10th ed., nos. 174-200).”

Furthermore, Predestination is all over the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=predestin*&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

And Scripture for that matter.

Romans 8:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he **predestined **he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ: 4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. 5 Who has **predestinated **us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: 6 Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he has **graced **us, in his beloved son. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which has superabounded in us, in all wisdom and prudence, 9 that he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he has purposed in him, 10 in the dispensation of the fullness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him.

It’s also copiously written about by the Early Church Fathers. Augustine for example:

newadvent.org/fathers/15121.htm

So if anything muddies any waters, it is Catholics not understanding Catholic doctrine.

I think what’s ultimately expressing is still the same thing. Bottom line, God knows what will happen. Through his grace, it is within our free will to say yes to God or to reject him.

 

[capablanca911]

Right on.

Catholics affirm both predestination and free will.

How they work in relation to each other is a mystery.

The focus on free will is the Molinist view. The focus on the predestination aspect is the Thomist theory.

 

[Ron_Conte]

God gives everyone grace that is sufficient for salvation.
God does not give everyone grace that is efficacious for salvation.

That last assertion is not true and is not found in any magisterial document. It is not the teaching of the Church.

If God chose to deny some persons any type of grace that is necessary for salvation, He would be choosing who goes to Hell. In effect, He would be predestining some to Hell. The Magisterium teaches that this is not the case:

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

CCC 600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace

So the Catholic view of predestination INCLUDES our free will decisions. God is all-powerful, but He respects our free will. Catholic predestination is a combination of God’s knowledge, God’s universal salvific will, the offer of all the graces needed for salvation, and our free will decisions.

If we willfully turn away from God by an actual mortal sin, and persist unrepentant in that sin through the last moment of life, then we go to Hell. All the graces needed for salvation without any exception are offered to all created persons. Those persons only are lost who choose to reject both the grace to avoid mortal sin and the grace to repent from mortal sin.

Salvation is offered to all persons, and it is made concretely available to all persons.

 

[Qoeleth]

We cannot partake however in good deeds without the grace of God. To say God has no role in our acts of merit would be pelagianism.

Yes, but God has made us capable of doing good deeds, and resisting sin (Sirach 15:14-16). In other words, we can do good, if we want too, and make an effort.

The role of God, I suppose, is to give us the Law, and maybe a little encouragement now and then. But the proverbail ball is in our court about what we choose to do.

 

[Qoeleth]

The quote that you blockquoted above your comments were block quotes from the second Council of Orange on July3,** 529 AD**.

Says the Catholic Encylopedia:

“The acts of the council, which were signed by the bishops, the pretorian prefect Liberius and seven other distinguished laymen, were forwarded to Rome and **approved by Boniface II on 25 January, 531 **(see BONIFACE II). They consequently enjoy œcumenical authority and are printed in Denzinger’s “Enchiridion Symbolorum” (10th ed., nos. 174-200).”

Furthermore, Predestination is all over the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=predestin*&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

And Scripture for that matter.

Romans 8:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he **predestined **he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ: 4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. 5 Who has **predestinated **us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: 6 Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he has **graced **us, in his beloved son. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which has superabounded in us, in all wisdom and prudence, 9 that he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he has purposed in him, 10 in the dispensation of the fullness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him.

It’s also copiously written about by the Early Church Fathers. Augustine for example:

newadvent.org/fathers/15121.htm

So if anything muddies any waters, it is Catholics not understanding Catholic doctrine.

Well, Paul and Augustine both laid the foundations for Protestantism. The whole idea of predestination is a Protestant error, in my opinion.

God gave us free will. We choose our own deeds, and are responsible fore them. God is the just Law-giver and Judge of our deeds. We will be rewarded as our deeds deserve- fire or water, the choice is ours (Sirach 15).

If God already knew the result, why bother sending us to Earth to test us?

 

[capablanca911]

Well, Paul and Augustine both laid the foundations for Protestantism. The whole idea of predestination is a Protestant error, in my opinion.

God gave us free will. We choose our own deeds, and are responsible fore them. God is the just Law-giver and Judge of our deeds. We will be rewarded as our deeds deserve- fire or water, the choice is ours (Sirach 15).

If God already knew the result, why bother sending us to Earth to test us?

Don’t forget Peter.

1 Peter 1:1 (RSV-Catholic Edition)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado′cia, Asia, and Bithyn′ia,[a] 2 chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Yeah. Peter and Paul, those early Protestants…

 

[Qoeleth]

Don’t forget Peter.

1 Peter 1:1 (RSV-Catholic Edition)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado′cia, Asia, and Bithyn′ia,[a] 2 chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Yeah. Peter and Paul, those early Protestants…

I believe God is perfectly just. It would be unfair to destine or choose some to be saved, and others not. We all have a fair chance. The language of ‘pre-destination’ is fraught with difficulties- it sounds like Calvin.

 

[capablanca911]

God does not predestine anyone to hell. That was condemned at Trent.

But proorizō (pro = pre, orizo =ordain) is used throughout Scripture and predestined is used in the Catechism.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

God predestines the Elect for Heaven.

God doesn’t predestine anyone to Hell–all who go to Hell go there by their own choice.

God wills ALL to be saved but ALL do not take Him up on His offer of salvation.

God gives efficacious grace to the Elect but He gives SUFFICIENT grace to all.

That is why it is fair that some wind up in Hell–God gives them SUFFICIENT grace not to go to Hell but He respects their FREE WILL choice not to accept His SUFFICIENT grace that is given to all.

God loves them so much that He respects their FREE WILL and LETS them go to Hell because that is where they WILL to go!!!

I’ll tell you what kind of people NOT to believe who might post here.

Don’t believe the universalist type people who thinks the whole world is going to be saved.

The only one who pushes that is the devil… Jesus said “Few”. “Few” is the truth!

Don’t believe the Once Saved Always Saved Calvinists. OSAS was made up by the devil so when people would unexpectedly die in their state of PRESUMPTION in a state of mortal sin the devil could laughingly take them off to Hell!

Lastly don’t believe Catholics who act like they hardly ever mortally sin–you know the type–the type that only goes to confession once a year!

Do you know anyone that only mortally sins once a year–if you do tell me their name because they are saints and I want to be around them so I can learn how to be that Holy!

The one to believe is the Holy Spirit who is God who inspired St. Paul to write in inspired scripture–the Holy Bible–“WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING”.

Trust that–trust the Catholic Church–avail yourself of the sacraments–live the beatitudes–perform “God willed works” as God leads you onto the path of salvation and have FAITH in the Mercy of Christ Jesus and do all these things every moment of your life the best way you can–asking the saints and Our Blessed Mother Mary to help you and

TRUST in JESUS

and you will go to Heaven!

It’s that HARD–it’s that EASY–you have no CHOICE–you have to choose–so why not choose–

Jesus!!!

In the end you don’t choose Him–He has already chosen you!

Just LET Jesus love you!

As St. Thomas Aquinas says: salvation will result if we do not raise an IMPEDIMENT to it.

We will GRACE FULLY be saved by Our faith in Christ Jesus IF we will LET Our Faith continue THROUGH “God willed works” unto death.

The greatest paradox of all–God does all the saving while being SO INFINITELY PERFECT that HE allows us to COOPERATE with Him! What a mystery–what a salvation–what truly IS the One True God!