Predestination question

[mlz]

At a bible study this questions came up and I would like the Catholic answers if someone could help me I would very much appreciate it- thank you! ( especially the first one)

1. Since God is omnipotent and all knowing. Why does he create people that he knows will be damned?
2. How can a loving God condemn people to damnation? ( I think this is easier to answer but would appreciate others answers)
3. Since faith is a gift, why aren’t all people given this gift? ( again, I think I have an answer to this but want to hear others)

I certainly appreciate those that give time to respond. God bless you!
mlz

 

[robertkchacon]

At a bible study this questions came up and I would like the Catholic answers if someone could help me I would very much appreciate it- thank you! ( especially the first one)

1. Since God is omnipotent and all knowing. Why does he create people that he knows will be damned?

You would still have children even though you know they may not make it to heaven. God knows some of us will be damned, but He does not will it. That is a Calvinist double predestination belief the Church does not accept. He allows us in our free will to create our children even though He knows some will be damned.

1. How can a loving God condemn people to damnation? ( I think this is easier to answer but would appreciate others answers)Yes, He does not damn our souls , we make the decision ourselves.
2. Since faith is a gift, why aren’t all people given this gift? ( again, I think I have an answer to this but want to hear others)

We are ALL given the grace to have faith. Some simply choose to reject it. The gift is the Grace to be able to accept faith. We have to choose to have faith. Without Grace we would not have faith. So the real gift given to everyone is grace, while faith is something chosen by the saved.

I certainly appreciate those that give time to respond. God bless you!
mlz

 

[animalis]

The Angelic Doctor said, “God evidently produces things by His will, and not under the impulse of natural necessity.”(Compendium theologiae, 96)

 

[empther]

1. Since God is omnipotent and all knowing. Why does he create people that he knows will be damned?

God could not know whether a person will be saved or damned unless he will create the person.

Looking at it another way makes this easier to understand.
Suppose God decided, “I will not create Vulcan with a race of Vulcans. The Earth is enough to keep me busy.”

Would God know what would have happened to the Vulcans if he had created them? No. There is nothing to be known. It is unknowable. Omniscience does not include knowing the unknowable. It is a self-contradition to know what will never be in terms of actual existence. ( Knowing possibilities is something else. )

 

[belorg]

God could not know whether a person will be saved or damned unless he will create the person.

Looking at it another way makes this easier to understand.
Suppose God decided, “I will not create Vulcan with a race of Vulcans. The Earth is enough to keep me busy.”

Would God know what would have happened to the Vulcans if he had created them? No. There is nothing to be known. It is unknowable. Omniscience does not include knowing the unknowable. It is a self-contradition to know what will never be in terms of actual existence. ( Knowing possibilities is something else. )

Molinists won’t agree with you.

 

[EmeraldOak]

I feel very underqualified to answer but will answer as I understand them

1. Since God is omnipotent and all knowing. Why does he create people that he knows will be damned? In my opinion He creates all people out of love - the same way a husband and wife bring children into the world out of love. I took a chance when I had my children. They are precious and dear to me beyond verbal explanation. But in my being open to life and essentially allowing them to come into existence I was taking a chance that they would eventually someday end up in hell. But that didn’t stop me from having them. I am doing the best I can to teach them and raise them in the ways of the Lord and the Church. But I have no say over where they will spend eternity because that depends on the choices they make. So anyone who has children yet accuses God of this is a hypocrite because they have done the very same thing they are accusing Him of. They have allowed another soul to come into existence knowing that that child may someday spend spend eternity in hell, but yet most likely their motive for having children in the first place was love, just the same as that is God’s motive.
2. How can a loving God condemn people to damnation? ( I think this is easier to answer but would appreciate others answers) People condemn themselves to damnation. God is the just judge who sees that the appropriate sentence is carried out. The wages of sin is death. God could have just left it at that, but by His mercy He sent His son Jesus to save us. Salvation and eternal life in heaven are free gifts. But as St. John’s gospel makes clear, each person must accept this gift. How? by accepting Jesus and His teachings.
3. Since faith is a gift, why aren’t all people given this gift? ( again, I think I have an answer to this but want to hear others) I think faith is a gift given to everyone and that some people are given a special second helping of faith if you will as a special grace in their life. I used to have my 3rd grade class memorize parts of Chapter 11 of the book of Hebrews. “By faith Noah…, by faith Abraham… and on and on and on” Seems to me like the people in that chapter were given an extra measure of faith. I guess I would think of it sort of like how every believer is a recipient of God’s grace but sometimes He gives people a particular grace for a specific task or thing that He wills that person to accomplish. I do believe though that every person is given the gift of faith, as much faith as that person needs to come to salvation. I personally just think some people reject this gift.

I certainly appreciate those that give time to respond. God bless you!
mlz

 

[Partinobodycula]

1. Since faith is a gift, why aren’t all people given this gift? ( again, I think I have an answer to this but want to hear others)

It may not be my place to interject, for I am not a Catholic, neither am I a Greek scholar by any means, but in Eph. 2:8, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God”. That which is referred to as being a gift, is grace, not faith. People often get confused on this scripture because of the way the Greek refers back to the subject. It is different than the way we are used to seeing it in English. I just thought that I would point this out.

Oh, and forgive me for using the KJV, I much prefer it, at least in this case.

 

[Alindawyl]

1. Since God is omnipotent and all knowing. Why does he create people that he knows will be damned?

Because God is perfect love.

When you love someone, do you tell them, “I love you, therefore you must love me in return?” Of course not. That’s not how love works. You tell them, “I love you,” and then permit them to give their answer. They are free to tell you, “And I love you too,” but they are also free to tell you, “Sorry, but I do not love you.”

If God created people who must love him instead of people who were free to choose to love him, he would be creating robots instead of people. So because God is love instead of selfishness, in making all people free to say yes to his love, he must by necessity make all people free to say no to his love. He can’t make that choice for us.

1. How can a loving God condemn people to damnation? ( I think this is easier to answer but would appreciate others answers)

Because God is not only perfect love, but perfect justice and perfect mercy.

If someone does something wrong, it is just to punish them. If someone repents and asks for forgiveness, it is just to punish them but merciful to go lighter on the punishment. If someone is never sorry for the wrong they have committed and never repents no matter what is said or done, then it is just to leave them in prison forever.

The souls in hell are not trapped there because God holds them against their will. They remain of their own accord because they choose to exercise their will against God forever and would rather glorify themselves in hell no matter the cost.

Heaven is the same. The souls in heaven are not prevented by God from sinning. They choose to be sinless of their own accord because they choose to exercise their will for God forever and would rather glorify God in heaven than glorify themselves.

1. Since faith is a gift, why aren’t all people given this gift? ( again, I think I have an answer to this but want to hear others)

God offers the gift of faith to all people. But not all people choose to accept it.

A gift is like love in that part of the nature of a gift is that it is freely given. We don’t call something a gift if you are forced to accept it.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God could not know whether a person will be saved or damned unless he will create the person.

Looking at it another way makes this easier to understand.
Suppose God decided, “I will not create Vulcan with a race of Vulcans. The Earth is enough to keep me busy.”

Would God know what would have happened to the Vulcans if he had created them? No. There is nothing to be known. It is unknowable. Omniscience does not include knowing the unknowable. It is a self-contradition to know what will never be in terms of actual existence. ( Knowing possibilities is something else. )

Either God is Omniscient or God Isn’t, there is no such thing as almost or sort of Omniscience.

Seems like whenever we try to puff God up, all that we do is make God smaller.

 

[oldcelt]

Because God is perfect love.

When you love someone, do you tell them, “I love you, therefore you must love me in return?” Of course not. That’s not how love works. You tell them, “I love you,” and then permit them to give their answer. They are free to tell you, “And I love you too,” but they are also free to tell you, “Sorry, but I do not love you.”

If God created people who must love him instead of people who were free to choose to love him, he would be creating robots instead of people. So because God is love instead of selfishness, in making all people free to say yes to his love, he must by necessity make all people free to say no to his love. He can’t make that choice for us.

Because God is not only perfect love, but perfect justice and perfect mercy.

If someone does something wrong, it is just to punish them. If someone repents and asks for forgiveness, it is just to punish them but merciful to go lighter on the punishment. If someone is never sorry for the wrong they have committed and never repents no matter what is said or done, then it is just to leave them in prison forever.

The souls in hell are not trapped there because God holds them against their will. They remain of their own accord because they choose to exercise their will against God forever and would rather glorify themselves in hell no matter the cost.

Heaven is the same. The souls in heaven are not prevented by God from sinning. They choose to be sinless of their own accord because they choose to exercise their will for God forever and would rather glorify God in heaven than glorify themselves.

God offers the gift of faith to all people. But not all people choose to accept it.

A gift is like love in that part of the nature of a gift is that it is freely given. We don’t call something a gift if you are forced to accept it.

That certainly is not what I was taught. Hell was a one way street, but you imply that if they change their mind they could be released from hell, That is certainly a more fair system for an omniscient Deity, who has known that person’s every move from pre-birth to death, As the Christian God is almost always taught you MUST accept His love And return it (Exactly how is unclear.) or burn for all eternity.

 

[Frankenfurter]

God gives us a part in creation.

Kind of reminds me of when I let our kids help chose where to go where for vacation.

 

[UbiCaritas15]

At a bible study this questions came up and I would like the Catholic answers if someone could help me I would very much appreciate it- thank you! ( especially the first one)

1. Since God is omnipotent and all knowing. Why does he create people that he knows will be damned?
2. How can a loving God condemn people to damnation? ( I think this is easier to answer but would appreciate others answers)
3. Since faith is a gift, why aren’t all people given this gift? ( again, I think I have an answer to this but want to hear others)

I certainly appreciate those that give time to respond. God bless you!
mlz

1. Any created being without free will wouldn’t be capable of choosing God. Even the angels have free will, hence the devil and demons. Without free will a creature would be, a robot.
2. A loving God calls all people to himself. Free will requires that we heed his call. If we had no choice, again the robot issue.
3. All people are given the gift of faith, but free will requires that we heed the call or we are back to robots.

 

[tdgesq]

At a bible study this questions came up and I would like the Catholic answers if someone could help me I would very much appreciate it- thank you! ( especially the first one)

1. Since God is omnipotent and all knowing. Why does he create people that he knows will be damned?

We don’t know that he has created any person who will be damned.

1. How can a loving God condemn people to damnation? ( I think this is easier to answer but would appreciate others answers)

We don’t know that God condemns any person to damnation.

1. Since faith is a gift, why aren’t all people given this gift? ( again, I think I have an answer to this but want to hear others)

God imparts grace to all people as invitation. We don’t know whether all people ultimately accept this gift or not.

 

[empther]

Quote:
Originally Posted by empther
God could not know whether a person will be saved or damned unless he will create the person.

Looking at it another way makes this easier to understand.
Suppose God decided, “I will not create Vulcan with a race of Vulcans. The Earth is enough to keep me busy.”

Would God know what would have happened to the Vulcans if he had created them? No. There is nothing to be known. It is unknowable. Omniscience does not include knowing the unknowable. It is a self-contradition to know what will never be in terms of actual existence. ( Knowing possibilities is something else. )

Either God is Omniscient or God Isn’t, there is no such thing as almost or sort of Omniscience.

Seems like whenever we try to puff God up, all that we do is make God smaller.

:banghead:

You can see, friends, why these same old questions keep popping up on the forum over and over and over again.

When the answers are given…
…people just can’t understand the answers.

 

[Amandil]

That certainly is not what I was taught as a one way street, but you imply that if they change their mind they could be released from hell,

There is nothing to implicate. The reprobate will not change their mind because they refuse to love anything else except themselves.

From their perspective it is God who must change to allow them to love what they want instead of God. God is a tyrant who demands that they give up their loves for Him. They want to be gods without God.

God will never change, nor can God permit sin because sin is the utter lack of goodness, truth,and beauty. Sin is un-reality. Sin is a lie. And God cannot nor will not suffer sin to exist in His kingdom.

Because God created them out of love He cannot destroy them through annihilating them.

Nor will He force salvation onto them.

The only other option is to let them have it their way, He leaves them alone, with what they love most: themselves.

Yet even in hell they cannot escape the real perceptible and sensible omnipresence of God, that “all-consumipplng fire”, eternally tortures them because it constantly calls for the very thing which they refuse to do: repent.

That is hell.

That is certainly a more fair system for an omniscient Deity, who has known that person’s every move from pre-birth to death, As the Christian God is almost always taught you MUST accept His love And return it (Exactly how is unclear.) or burn for all eternity.

You apparently don’t understand. God created us for the express purpose of love, not just the human emotional aspect called affection but for actually living and working in love.

God doesn’t command us to love because He needs to be loved, God is wholly sufficient in Himself. Nor does God command us to do arbitrary things.

God commands us to love because Him because it is for our supreme good and happiness. Love of God and neighbor is our end. Any other aspect of creation exists solely to direct us to that end.

Accepting God’s love is the key to unlocking our ability to loving Him and therefore loving others for His sake.

Accepting God’s love is also the key to stopping us from the excessive focus on the self as an absolute. Accepting God’s love is humble, and humility is defined as living in accordance with the truth.

People who refuse to love God are by definition not humble, rather they are ego-centric. By rejecting God they have lost the connection to any sense of their own individual purpose. Since they have lost their sense of their proper place in creation according to God they instead try to make all of creation “their” place, their world, their absolute possession.

Everything in that “world” they attempt to dominate, it begins with the self, their own morality(I make morality, not some external “god”), then it spreads out from there.

 

[mlz]

There is nothing to implicate. The reprobate will not change their mind because they refuse to love anything else except themselves.

From their perspective it is God who must change to allow them to love what they want instead of God. God is a tyrant who demands that they give up their loves for Him. They want to be gods without God.

God will never change, nor can God permit sin because sin is the utter lack of goodness, truth,and beauty. Sin is un-reality. Sin is a lie. And God cannot nor will not suffer sin to exist in His kingdom.

Because God created them out of love He cannot destroy them through annihilating them.

Nor will He force salvation onto them.

The only other option is to let them have it their way, He leaves them alone, with what they love most: themselves.

Yet even in hell they cannot escape the real perceptible and sensible omnipresence of God, that “all-consumipplng fire”, eternally tortures them because it constantly calls for the very thing which they refuse to do: repent.

That is hell.

You apparently don’t understand. God created us for the express purpose of love, not just the human emotional aspect called affection but for actually living and working in love.

God doesn’t command us to love because He needs to be loved, God is wholly sufficient in Himself. Nor does God command us to do arbitrary things.

God commands us to love because Him because it is for our supreme good and happiness. Love of God and neighbor is our end. Any other aspect of creation exists solely to direct us to that end.

Accepting God’s love is the key to unlocking our ability to loving Him and therefore loving others for His sake.

Accepting God’s love is also the key to stopping us from the excessive focus on the self as an absolute. Accepting God’s love is humble, and humility is defined as living in accordance with the truth.

People who refuse to love God are by definition not humble, rather they are ego-centric. By rejecting God they have lost the connection to any sense of their own individual purpose. Since they have lost their sense of their proper place in creation according to God they instead try to make all of creation “their” place, their world, their absolute possession.

Everything in that “world” they attempt to dominate, it begins with the self, their own morality(I make morality, not some external “god”), then it spreads out from there.

Thank you- well said and helpful.
Also all the rest of those who took the time to share - it was helpful. God out of love gives us free will- makes sense. I also am reading a good book by Peter Kreeft that is helping also. Blessings to you all!
In His love,
mlz

 

[Alindawyl]

That certainly is not what I was taught. Hell was a one way street, but you imply that if they change their mind they could be released from hell, That is certainly a more fair system for an omniscient Deity, who has known that person’s every move from pre-birth to death, As the Christian God is almost always taught you MUST accept His love And return it (Exactly how is unclear.) or burn for all eternity.

When I spoke of forgiveness, I was referring to us here on earth. When I spoke of never being sorry and never repenting, I was referring to hell. The souls in hell actively refuse to repent and refuse to ask for forgiveness. Forever. Therefore, it is perfectly just that they remain in hell. Forever.

Because it is freely chosen, there is nothing unfair about hell at all.

How you return God’s love is very clear. Jesus tells us that if we love God, we will keep his commandments. Love God, and love our neighbor out of that love for God. Honor God first. Honor your parents. Be chaste. Tell the truth. Respect life. Respect the property of others. Be generous with your own property, rather than jealous or miserly. Basically, put the needs of others ahead of your own wants. That’s what love looks like.

Jesus gives us even more detail on how to love, on how to develop good habits that help us to better love others, in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapters 5-7. Lots of good principles to live by. It’s not easy, because we are all too frequently tempted to be selfish and must strive to resist that temptation. But it’s very simple.

 

[oldcelt]

When I spoke of forgiveness, I was referring to us here on earth. When I spoke of never being sorry and never repenting, I was referring to hell. The souls in hell actively refuse to repent and refuse to ask for forgiveness. Forever. Therefore, it is perfectly just that they remain in hell. Forever.

Because it is freely chosen, there is nothing unfair about hell at all.

How you return God’s love is very clear. Jesus tells us that if we love God, we will keep his commandments. Love God, and love our neighbor out of that love for God. Honor God first. Honor your parents. Be chaste. Tell the truth. Respect life. Respect the property of others. Be generous with your own property, rather than jealous or miserly. Basically, put the needs of others ahead of your own wants. That’s what love looks like.

Jesus gives us even more detail on how to love, on how to develop good habits that help us to better love others, in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapters 5-7. Lots of good principles to live by. It’s not easy, because we are all too frequently tempted to be selfish and must strive to resist that temptation. But it’s very simple.

Murderers, serial adulterers, etc., those I can relate. However, I heard a statement here to the effect that 80 % will not make heaven. If that is even remotely true, then that God created a broken system.

 

[4love2God]

mlz throws out 4 of the eternal questions :

1. Since God is omnipotent and all knowing. Why does He create people that He knows will be damned?

Why do you think that God shouldn’t have created people to be damned?
What have you read in the Bible that would make His action somehow inappropriate?

God created the Jews. God gave the Jews 10 Commandments.
God said something like: Hey, if you follow these rules, you can have a FUN Afterlife.
Then, God allows people to murder, and rape, and steal, and back-bite … … It has something to do with that pesky Free Will.

1. How can a loving God condemn people to damnation? ( I think this is easier to answer but would appreciate others answers)

People actually condemn themselves to a lousy Afterlife.
If a Jew reads about the 10 Commandments, and mindfully violates them (you know, on purpose), he has been warned.
If a Christian reads how Jesus tells us to bahave, and he chooses to violate that Code of Conduct, he has been warned.

So, a person dies, and meets his Maker, Jesus the Christ.
Several Saints have reported that the person himself, looks at his Life, and decides that he didn’t measure up.
Then, a term in Purgatory is pronounced (or, for some, a sentence to Hell).
At that point, the Purgatory-bound person knows it is just a matter of time before he actually arrives in Heaven.

Anyway, even if God Himself orders BIG sinners to not-Heaven, what’s the difference?
God has picked out a Reward for those who use this Life as a time to get their Spirituality in order, and their actions in order.
What kind of incentive would a Christian have to attempt to live a good Life, if God said:
"Hey, I got some rules I want you to follow. If you do a Great job of following them, you will get NOTHING."

This Life is FREE … if we do a good-enough job, then we can get a Bonus Life.
What a good deal.

3)** Since faith is a gift, why aren’t all people given this gift?**
Faith is a Gift?
Well, I guess is it in the same vein as: Being able to cold-bloodly murder people is a gift.
People either have that gift, or they don’t have that gift.
Faith in God is a very un-important part of living a Life.
A person can have a good Life, and not have Faith in a god.
And besides, many people place their Faith in something else … Like the power of Money, or power of having Power over others.

So, I believe that most everyone has Faith in something (maybe, that Mom loves me).
OP, are you suggesting that there are many people who don’t have Faith in anything?
If you do, I politely disagree.

And, in another way, Speaking in Tongues is a gift (so, why doesn’t every Christian do it)?
And Prophecy is another Gift of the Holy Spirit (so, why isn’t everybody Prophesying)?
A Gift is (by definition) something that a person does NOT have yet
I have a Birthday Party, and I receive gifts. Hopefully I don’t receive 12 of the same gifts.

A person doesn’t have an attribute.
Poof, one day a person HAS that attribute.
He has received a gift. God has blessed him.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Sure seems like a lot of people, who have never been to hell and have only read about hell, think that they “know all about hell”.

The whole “Predestination question”, which pretty much is another way of saying that God is Omniscient, is why God came up with a Plan even before creation and God becoming One of us is the pivotal point of God’s Plan for God’s creation.