Predestination question

[Tom_Baum]

We don’t know God’s ways. Perhaps letting the person who will go to hell into the world, that person allowed another person to get to heaven. One can always learn from example and watching a person make bad decisions lets some learn how to make good decisions.

Predestination is a Calvin teaching. The church said it was a heresy so I don’t put much thought in it. Calvinism also taught they knew who would go to hell since those people were not blessed in this life either. They were poor or sickly, etc. Not a good way to look at our neighbors is it?

Predestination is merely a way of looking at God’s Omniscience and if God is truly Omniscient that God knows everything about everyone.

God is either Omniscient or God isn’t, partial Omniscience is NOT Omniscience.

 

[empther]

Predestination is merely a way of looking at God’s Omniscience and if God is truly Omniscient that God knows everything about everyone.

He does know everything about everybody who has existed or will exist, but not about somebody who will never exist since there is nothing to know about somebody who will never exist.

God is either Omniscient or God isn’t, partial Omniscience is NOT Omniscience.

Not knowing what would have happened to somebody he will never create is no limitation on God’s omniscience. There is nothing to be known.

This was already explained in post 4:

God could not know whether a person will be saved or damned unless he will create the person.

Looking at it another way makes this easier to understand.
Suppose God decided, “I will not create Vulcan with a race of Vulcans. The Earth is enough to keep me busy.”

Would God know what would have happened to the Vulcans if he had created them? No. There is nothing to be known. It is unknowable. Omniscience does not include knowing the unknowable. It is a self-contradition to know what will never be in terms of actual existence. ( Knowing possibilities is something else. )

 

[Tom_Baum]

He does know everything about everybody who has existed or will exist, but not about somebody who will never exist since there is nothing to know about somebody who will never exist.

Not knowing what would have happened to somebody he will never create is no limitation on God’s omniscience. There is nothing to be known.

This was already explained in post 4:

Who said anything about God not knowing about someone that ain’t?

I sure didn’t.

What I am saying is that God knew that not all would repent this side of breath and that is why God came up with a Plan that is for everyone to be with God, ultimately, that is what the Good News is.

 

[Amandil]

Who said anything about God not knowing about someone that ain’t?

I sure didn’t.

What I am saying is that God knew that not all would repent this side of breath and that is why God came up with a Plan that is for everyone to be with God, ultimately, that is what the Good News is.

That’s not the Gospel. The Gospel is that Christ, the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, Who has suffered death and was buried, and has risen from the dead, Who is now alive and freely offers salvation to all through His Body, the Church.

The Gospel is the CALL for all to receive salvation from their sins in Christ, not that all are saved regardless of their spiritual state.

To be saved you must possess sanctifying grace that we receive through baptism and the other sacraments.

No sanctifying grace, no relationship with God.

No relationship with God, no salvation.

It’s that simple.

Again, you’re fudging the data to fit your theory.

 

[Biggie]

You wrote, “God would redeem all with the complete sacrifice of himself unto death.”

“My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”, there was quite a bit more going on at the cross than the mere physical.

OK not sure i know what you mean here - but my simple point is the Catholic position that we have been redeemed by Jesus Christ, and we are working out our salvation. There is a distinction between redemption and salvation. We have all been redeemed, but we can each choose to accept or decline our salvation. Seems straightforward to me.

 

[oneofmany]

At a bible study this questions came up and I would like the Catholic answers if someone could help me I would very much appreciate it- thank you! ( especially the first one)

1. Since God is omnipotent and all knowing. Why does he create people that he knows will be damned?
2. How can a loving God condemn people to damnation? ( I think this is easier to answer but would appreciate others answers)
3. Since faith is a gift, why aren’t all people given this gift? ( again, I think I have an answer to this but want to hear others)

I certainly appreciate those that give time to respond. God bless you!
mlz

Does God REALLY CREATE people who will be damned? God set creation in motion but He let’s people have children. We all have free will and if we have horrible parents who have made wrong decisions and raise us not knowing how to make better decisions than we will also do wrong. Is that God’s fault? Should he have made those people sterile who won’t be good parents?

We also have free will to do better than our parents and not have the life they lead, to be better people. Some decide not to work to that end.

 

[oldcelt]

Does God REALLY CREATE people who will be damned? God set creation in motion but He let’s people have children. We all have free will and if we have horrible parents who have made wrong decisions and raise us not knowing how to make better decisions than we will also do wrong. Is that God’s fault? Should he have made those people sterile who won’t be good parents?

We also have free will to do better than our parents and not have the life they lead, to be better people. Some decide not to work to that end.

To me you have hit on the biggies. If God pre-planned each and every one of us and has a plan (As you so often hear), then pre-destination exists, and God is complicit. If, on the other hand, God allows things to develop as they will, He’s in the clear.

After years of consideration and study, I have gone with option 2.

 

[Amandil]

To me you have hit on the biggies. If God pre-planned each and every one of us and has a plan (As you so often hear), then pre-destination exists, and God is complicit. If, on the other hand, God allows things to develop as they will, He’s in the clear.

After years of consideration and study, I have gone with option 2.

The only thing God is “complicit” in is that He created humans with free will.

Your problem is not with God but with your struggle against sin and your false assumption that God’s grace and will must be irresistable.

Deism doesn’t solve the problem of free will, and you’re assuming a false dichotomy.

 

[Tom_Baum]

To me you have hit on the biggies. If God pre-planned each and every one of us and has a plan (As you so often hear), then pre-destination exists, and God is complicit. If, on the other hand, God allows things to develop as they will, He’s in the clear.

After years of consideration and study, I have gone with option 2.

What you seem to be saying is that as long as God is NOT Omniscient than God is in the clear, so to speak.

Why I say this is that I do NOT believe that we (all of us humans) can, in our finite minds, reconcile how God can know absolutely everything about us even before we are conceived (Omniscience) and us not being puppets on a string and also considering that if God is Omniscient than God knows not only who will “repent” this side of breath but also who will not “repent” this side of death and that is why I have said and stake absolutely everything on God having come up with a Plan, even before creation itself, that truly is Good News.

I am not sure but I think that what I wrote in the above sentence is what some might call “double predestination”, if anyone says that God “knows” who will repent but does not “know” who will not repent than what they are saying is that God is only partially Omniscient which really means not Omniscient at all, any opinions from anyone on what I asked here?

You have kind of come up with a door number 1 and a door number 2 scenario, could be that God came up with a door number 3 scenario.

As it says, “They have eyes but do not see and they have ears but do not hear”, there is plenty written in the bible that I do not have a clue what it means but there is also plenty in the bible that some say that it doesn’t mean what it so clearly seems to say, could be that it means exactly what it seems to say.

Coming to the realization that God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being an attribute of God, and some other things, has made me look at some things in quite a different way from those that think/believe that Love is merely an attribute of God.

 

[oldcelt]

What you seem to be saying is that as long as God is NOT Omniscient than God is in the clear, so to speak.

Why I say this is that I do NOT believe that we (all of us humans) can, in our finite minds, reconcile how God can know absolutely everything about us even before we are conceived (Omniscience) and us not being puppets on a string and also considering that if God is Omniscient than God knows not only who will “repent” this side of breath but also who will not “repent” this side of death and that is why I have said and stake absolutely everything on God having come up with a Plan, even before creation itself, that truly is Good News.

I am not sure but I think that what I wrote in the above sentence is what some might call “double predestination”, if anyone says that God “knows” who will repent but does not “know” who will not repent than what they are saying is that God is only partially Omniscient which really means not Omniscient at all, any opinions from anyone on what I asked here?

You have kind of come up with a door number 1 and a door number 2 scenario, could be that God came up with a door number 3 scenario.

As it says, “They have eyes but do not see and they have ears but do not hear”, there is plenty written in the bible that I do not have a clue what it means but there is also plenty in the bible that some say that it doesn’t mean what it so clearly seems to say, could be that it means exactly what it seems to say.

Coming to the realization that God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being an attribute of God, and some other things, has made me look at some things in quite a different way from those that think/believe that Love is merely an attribute of God.

Much as I came to the conclusion that God is a creator. He started this universe and is watching how things develop. He is not a manager in my view. The Bible and the teachings of the church I found to be out of step with a God of love.

So, I don’t see any predestination.

 

[Amandil]

Much as I came to the conclusion that God is a creator. He started this universe and is watching how things develop. He is not a manager in my view. The Bible and the teachings of the church I found to be out of step with a God of love.

So, I don’t see any predestination.

So instead of just asking the question, “could my understanding of “love” be mistaken?” your solution is the equivalent of cutting someone’s head off to solve the problem of a cold?

 

[oldcelt]

So instead of just asking the question, “could my understanding of “love” be mistaken?” your solution is the equivalent of cutting someone’s head off to solve the problem of a cold?

I have often questioned any number of my views, religious and non, and these are the conclusions I have reached. Will any of these change? I can’t answer that question because my future is unwritten. Time will tell.

 

[Amandil]

I have often questioned any number of my views, religious and non, and these are the conclusions I have reached. Will any of these change? I can’t answer that question because my future is unwritten. Time will tell.

Well, you didn’t answer my question either. Could your value opinion of love be mistaken?

Because if your view of a God of love follows from a false definition of love, then it necessarily follows that your notion of God follows from a false definition.

Is what you think or assume by “love” the same that God means by love? If its not, you’re operating under a false premise.

 

[oldcelt]

Well, you didn’t answer my question either. Could your value opinion of love be mistaken?

Because if your view of a God of love follows from a false definition of love, then it necessarily follows that your notion of God follows from a false definition.

Is what you think or assume by “love” the same that God means by love? If its not, you’re operating under a false premise.

We all run the risk of being incorrect when we arrive at conclusion on a being or force that we have never seen, heard or, in my case, experienced.

 

[Amandil]

We all run the risk of being incorrect when we arrive at conclusion on a being or force that we have never seen, heard or, in my case, experienced.

I think that says more about you than about God.

 

[oldcelt]

I think that says more about you than about God.

I should hope so. I’d hate to think that I believe in a God who is not more intelligent, powerful, etc. than me.

Of course, that wasn’t really the point, was it? The point was and is that we each have to arrive at a conclusion on what we believe regarding a deity.

 

[Amandil]

I should hope so. I’d hate to think that I believe in a God who is not more intelligent, powerful, etc. than me.

Of course, that wasn’t really the point, was it? The point was and is that we each have to arrive at a conclusion on what we believe regarding a deity.

And that choice must be according to what is, not according to what we think should be.

 

[oldcelt]

And that choice must be according to what is, not according to what we think should be.

Precisely, that’s why I am a Deist.

 

[Amandil]

Precisely, that’s why I am a Deist.

No. You think that a world where “god” is the Christian God must be free of evil.

That’s called a false assumption based upon what you think should be, not what is.

You’re avoiding or ignoring reasoned evidence that doesn’t fit your preconceived ideas of what should be.

You’re not taking into account all of the data available, you’re only selecting the data which supports your view.