Predestination questions

[kristanl]

My friend recently sent me these verses saying God predestines people to heaven and hell:
Col. 3:12
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, …

Ephesians 1:4-6
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

How should I respond as a Catholic?

Thanks!

 

[2nd_Adam]

My friend recently sent me these verses saying God predestines people to heaven and hell:
Col. 3:12
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, …

Ephesians 1:4-6
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

How should I respond as a Catholic?

Thanks!

The Catholic Churches believes in Predestination too.

catholicsource.net/Predestination.html

 

[kristanl]

From the source you gave me:
accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).

I think she is trying to tell me that God predestines to Heaven and hell, she is Presbyterian… So I understand God choses people to go to heaven in Catholicism, but also affirms the freedom of human will. Do you think she believes in double predestination then? lol Sorry… sometimes its really confusing to understand from another perspective.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

From the source you gave me:
accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).

I think she is trying to tell me that God predestines to Heaven and hell, she is Presbyterian… So I understand God choses people to go to heaven in Catholicism, but also affirms the freedom of human will. Do you think she believes in double predestination then? lol Sorry… sometimes its really confusing to understand from another perspective.

Due to my father’s loss of his Catholic faith, he had me baptised Presbyterian. So when I did become a Christian, that was where I first went. Fortunately my first and most outstanding pastor was an ex-Methodist, so he didn’t believe in the hardline “election” doctrine of the Presbyterians. He felt their doctrine led to spiritual arrogance, which I would have to agree with, based on certain personal experiences.

So I missed out on the hardline stuff.

Yes, basically they believe God picks and chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, even before they’re born.

Having said that, I had the peculiar experience of my father appearing in my room the night he died. One thing that I’ve struggled with was his statement at one stage during the proceedings, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” I argued back, saying that couldn’t be right.

He replied, “Oh, it’s right all right. You can see that from here!” Later however in the same exchange, he admitted, “I was WILLING!” In other words, the behaviour that condemned him was his own choice.

I don’t understand it. But as the other poster here stated, the Catholic Church’s position is that free will is involved, and it is. It was my father’s decision to abandon his Catholic faith, to treat his own family like a real little tyrant, etc. In what sense he was predestined to do so, I don’t know.

I mean when it’s all said and done, heaven and hell, the human race etc. are all the result of God’s overall sovereignty. Therefore He would have some (name removed by moderator)ut into the proceedings. Free will on our part in fact almost implies a sort of abdication on His part. The fact that evil gets its own way so often in this world indicates God has withdrawn His power to “force” our wills to a very large extent.

If we were completely predestined, one would wonder what God and the devil were fighting for, if the outcome were completely known beforehand by both parties.

 

[peary1]

My friend recently sent me these verses saying God predestines people to heaven and hell:
Col. 3:12
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, …

So, how is this a predestination? Paul is describing attributes of the Holy Spirit as He sanctifies us in life. But I also know a lot of people whose personalities naturally tend toward these feelings, and yet they have a horrid sense of moral responsibility for themselves.

Ephesians 1:4-6
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Your friend would probably say that this proves predestination, either to Heaven or Hell. But God invites ALL human beings who are living to become adopted members of Christ’s body, the Church. This passage proves it. He desires no one to condemnation. Why? Because He loves us!

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Paul saw the big picture. Christ established a living society, a living Church that is an integral extension of Himself on earth. We who are members of that body are predestined to enjoy glory with Him in Heaven, as is anyone who believes. Does this exclude everyone else? No, it doesn’t. Again, God invites.

How should I respond as a Catholic?

**I just did! **

Thanks!

 

[kristanl]

Thanks everyone for your responses. She responded again, from WCF comments about what they believe. It also contained bible verses supposedly discussing predestination, but many of the verses were taken out of context if you read the whole passage. I understand all of this a lot more now. Thanks!!

 

[romesweethome]

If God predestined humans to hell, that would make God the author of evil which is contrary to scripture and to the teachings of the Church Christ built upon cephas(rock).

It is impossible.

God grants everyone the opportunity to be saved, everyone.

peace, romesweethome

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Thanks everyone for your responses. She responded again, from WCF comments about what they believe. It also contained bible verses supposedly discussing predestination, but many of the verses were taken out of context if you read the whole passage. I understand all of this a lot more now. Thanks!!

When it’s all said and done, the Calvinistic doctrine of “election” is in fact their own opinion of their own salvation. They are sure they’re the “Elect”.

Oddly enough the same old pastor at one stage confided to me in his office that he “sometimes wondered if Protestants get into heaven.” He also thought Luther might have been the “false prophet” of Revelation fame.

Some time after he died, I had a vision (yes, I do seem to get a number of odd spiritual experiences, whatever the reason), where he said, “We’re not in heaven. We’re all in Purgatory. Oh, we’re not suffering any pain, so you don’t have to worry about that! In fact, it’s pretty good around here. But we’re not in heaven.”

I found from personal experience he was hardly ever wrong when he made a considered statement.

I suspect a lot of the “Elect” will find they weren’t quite as “elected” as they thought, when they die.

 

[kristanl]

Yea I see what you guys are saying. I ended up asking my friend- how does SHE know that she is predestined to heaven then. She said she just knows. I said that why even pray? If you are automatically going to heaven? There are things you HAVE to do on this Earth in order to inherit the kingdom of heaven.

 

[peary1]

When it’s all said and done, the Calvinistic doctrine of “election” is in fact their own opinion of their own salvation. They are sure they’re the “Elect”.

It is their own opinion about their own salvation, and they are quite sure that they are the “Elect.” If you don’t believe me, just ask a Presbyterian or Dutch Reformed!

 

[2nd_Adam]

From the source you gave me:
accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).

I think she is trying to tell me that God predestines to Heaven and hell, she is Presbyterian… So I understand God choses people to go to heaven in Catholicism, but also affirms the freedom of human will. Do you think she believes in double predestination then? lol Sorry… sometimes its really confusing to understand from another perspective.

II believe in a positive-negative form of double predestination in which God passes over the reprobate with the grace needed to be saved. Catholic theology officially denies double predestination, but when you break up the Thomist’s Catholic view of predestination… I honestly believe it is a form of a positive-negative double predestination in which I believe as a Calvinist. The unbiblical form of double-predestination is a positive-positive form of double predestination in which God actively causes the reprobate to apostate. It is also known as hyper-Calvinism and is not related to biblical Calvinism. It sounds like your friend is a Calvinist.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Thanks everyone for your responses. She responded again, from WCF comments about what they believe. It also contained bible verses supposedly discussing predestination, but many of the verses were taken out of context if you read the whole passage. I understand all of this a lot more now. Thanks!!

I’m a Calvinist who adheres to the Westminster Confession of Faith too! I also believe Catholics are part of the remnant chosen by grace along-side Protestants and Orthdox Christians too. If you want to practice debating predestination with me, please feel free… because I can give you the Westminster Confession of Faith response in which I believe to be the biblical truth in regards to double-predestination.

 

[2nd_Adam]

If God predestined humans to hell, that would make God the author of evil which is contrary to scripture and to the teachings of the Church Christ built upon cephas(rock).

It is impossible.

God grants everyone the opportunity to be saved, everyone.

peace, romesweethome

Read this paper on Catholic predestination and focus on the Thomist’s view of Catholic predestination. You might be challenged in your view that you posted since this Thomist’s view is within orthodox Catholicism.

catholicsource.net/Predestination.html

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yea I see what you guys are saying. I ended up asking my friend- how does SHE know that she is predestined to heaven then. She said she just knows. I said that why even pray? If you are automatically going to heaven? There are things you HAVE to do on this Earth in order to inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Are we justified by faith or by works?

 

[izoid]

II believe in a positive-negative form of double predestination in which God passes over the reprobate with the grace needed to be saved. Catholic theology officially denies double predestination, but when you break up the Thomist’s Catholic view of predestination… I honestly believe it is a form of a positive-negative double predestination in which I believe as a Calvinist. The unbiblical form of double-predestination is a positive-positive form of double predestination in which God actively causes the reprobate to apostate. It is also known as hyper-Calvinism and is not related to biblical Calvinism. It sounds like your friend is a Calvinist.

I think that you are splitting hairs with your differentiation between your form of predestination and double predestination.

In the Calvinist view, no one can come to God unless He gives them the grace to do so. God passes over certain people, in turn sentencing them to hell. It is a form of semantics to deny this. You say that God does not condemn people to hell but He does not enable them to escape it.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think that you are splitting hairs with your differentiation between your form of predestination and double predestination.

In the Calvinist view, no one can come to God unless He gives them the grace to do so. God passes over certain people, in turn sentencing them to hell. It is a form of semantics to deny this. You say that God does not condemn people to hell but He does not enable them to escape it.

We are very similar… and the results are the same too!

Predestination and the Catholic Church

by Adam C. Kolasinski

The Catholic Church, following St. Augustine (e.g., Grace and Free Will, 1,1; Sermon 169, 11,13), accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a de fide dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith.

But, there is no official teaching on how exactly this comes into play. There are numerous theological schools of thought on the matter, the two major ones being the Thomists and the Molinists. I tend to subscribe to the former. The latter is closer to the Arminian position.

Any theological position on election, however, must conform with the Church’s soteriological teachings. Molinism, Thomism, and Arminianism all conform, Calvinism does not. To conform, your theology must accept the following:

1. Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.
2. Co-operation; it is necessary for salvation for a man to cooperate with God’s grace. Man must continuously allow God’s grace to work in him. If at any point a man prevents this, he falls from grace.
3. Jesus died for all men, and his sacrifice has the potential of saving all, but his act did not automatically save anyone, only those who choose to accept him.
4. Man is born in a state of sin, and must be called by God in order to accept Him and thus receive the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
5. God predestines no one to Hell. i.e. you can only believe in negative reprobation, not positive.

There are, of course, many other teachings on salvation, but these are the main ones. Thomism, unlike Calvinism, accepts all of them. The main difference between the various schools of thought is how the calling grace of point 4 get dispensed, and its effects. Thomists maintain that God does not bestow it on everyone, while Molinists maintain that he does.

For more on the Catholic Church and Predestination, this essay by Ludwig Ott has more: Catholic Predestination

 

[peary1]

Yes, I believe that God is all-knowing and all-seeing. But I also suspect that sometimes He is quite surprised by the actions of human beings. It’s like parents who knows what will happen to their children when they go in the wrong direction. They can pretty well ‘see’ what the future may hold for them. In that case, I can understand “predestination.”

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, I believe that God is all-knowing and all-seeing. But I also suspect that sometimes He is quite surprised by the actions of human beings. It’s like parents who knows what will happen to their children when they go in the wrong direction. They can pretty well ‘see’ what the future may hold for them. In that case, I can understand “predestination.”

Do you really believe God can be surprised by human beings? I personally think that God cannot learn since He knows all things.

 

[peary1]

Do you really believe God can be surprised by human beings? I personally think that God cannot learn since He knows all things.

I would be VERY surprised if God cannot be surprised by human beings. Free will, you know!

 

[2nd_Adam]

I would be VERY surprised if God cannot be surprised by human beings. Free will, you know!

If God can be surprised by human beings, then can He actually be God? Does anybody know the official Catholic position in regards to God being surprised by human beings?