Predestination

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DEESYPAL

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Recently I have been a little distressed over the teaching over predestination. It is very unclear and a very difficult teaching to grasp. I came a across a protestant website and it talked about Jesus calling His sheep,

‘the Gospel according to John, Jesus uses a metaphor that may be helpful here. Several times he speaks of himself as a shepherd calling his sheep. But it’s clear that not everyone belongs to his flock. His sheep recognize his voice. Others do not. When we preach the Gospel, we are calling in Jesus’ name. Those who are Jesus’ sheep will respond. We don’t need to know in advance who they are, or how many they are. We can hope for everyone.’

This was quite scary if you look at evangelising from this viewpoint. What happened to Christ dying for all of humanity?
 
DEESYPAL said:
This was quite scary if you look at evangelising from this viewpoint. What happened to Christ dying for all of humanity?
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The reality is that Jesus is very clear, in that very few people will end up in heaven.

Matthew 7:13

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

It’s not scary, it’s just Christianity. However, the message that most people are going to end up in hell, is generally ignored or downplayed by many Catholics.
 
The claims made by phantasm are opinion, not catholic teaching. And, frankly, unless he or she can claim otherwise, they are in no way taught by the Catholic Church.

I’d recommend that you continue to ground yourself in authentic Catholic teaching. Anyone can quote passages from the Bible to support whatever claim they believe beforehand.

The Catholic Church does not teach predestination. Salvation is available to everyone through the sacrifice of Christ and the mercy of God.
 
Catholicism does teach predestination. Read Garrigou-Lagrange’s book, Predestination, and about the Thomist/Dominican tradition that dominated Catholicism until only the past few centuries. One can hold that the atonement was sufficient for all, but only efficient for the elect; and that efficient grace is given only to the elect, though all receive sufficient grace.

“This was quite scary if you look at evangelising from this viewpoint. What happened to Christ dying for all of humanity?”

Why is this scary - a Calvinist would simply say God ordains both the means and the ends, which is why people are called to preach. Christ died for all humanity in a sense, but if someone resists salvific grace, the question the various theories of predestination try to answer is why that happens.
 
I’m confused why you’re distressed. Predestination is not a Catholic teaching. Are you worried because you think it is, or worried because you think predestination may be true (and the Church is wrong), or worried because you think predestination may be true (and that’s a horrifying idea)?
 
My understanding, and the more learned can correct me if I’m wrong, is that nobody is predestined to go to Hell but there may be some who are predestined to be saved.

CCC 599 Jesus’ violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God’s plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.

CCC 600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

CCC 2012 “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

CCC 2823 "He has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ . . . to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will."We ask insistently for this loving plan to be fully realized on earth as it is already in heaven.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”.
 
Predestination is intended as a encouraging doctrine. God wills all men to be saved, and from eternity he has a plan for the salvation of all those who do not shut their hearts to him.

Two quotes from St. Thomas Aquinas, who clearly teaches predestination; is position is definitely not that God simply decides some will go to heaven and others go to hell, but offers grace to all.
God, who gives abundantly to all, denies grace to no one who does what is in himself to prepare himself for grace… Whence as long as man has the use of free choice in this life, in which he is not yet confirmed towards evil, he can prepare himself for grace by sorrowing for his sins, and obtain the grace of the remission of sins (In IV Sent. 20:1:1A).
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Though grace is not had by merits, - otherwise grace would not be grace – man must do what is in him. Now God, by his most liberal will, gives to every one who prepares himself. “Behold I stand at the door and knock; if anyone opens to me, I will go in to him.” (Rev 3:20) “He who wills all men to be saved.” I Tim 2:4 And therefore God’s grace is absent to no one, but so far as is in it, it communicates itself to all. (Super Heb. Cap 12, Lec 3.)
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Of course there are many things to be said about predestination in Thomas Aquinas, but I just wanted to cite these as important to keep in mind in any discussion about the Church’s traditional understanding of predestination.

St. Paul, too brings up predestination as a reason for confidence and hope: Predestination and hope in St. Paul
 
thistle said:
My understanding, and the more learned can correct me if I’m wrong, is that nobody is predestined to go to Hell but there may be some who are predestined to be saved.

CCC 599 Jesus’ violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God’s plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.

CCC 600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

CCC 2012 “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

CCC 2823 "He has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ . . . to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will."We ask insistently for this loving plan to be fully realized on earth as it is already in heaven.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”.
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If you think anyone is predestined for heaven then aren’t you denying free will?
 
“If you think anyone is predestined for heaven then aren’t you denying free will?”

You need to define what you mean by free will - do you think your will to do godly things is completely independent of grace to move you to will to do that? As Aquinas said, “Now there is no distinction between what flows from free will, and what is of predestination; as there is no distinction between what flows from a secondary cause and from a first cause.” and “Whatsoever is in man disposing him toward salvation, is all included under the effect of predestination, even the preparation for grace.”

It is not as if one is coerced to do good or bad; people are freely choosing to do what they want to do, according to their desire. Denying predestination to salvage a completely libertarian system of free will does not gain you much; did you have any control over the family or time or circumstances you were born in? If all these factors influenced how you exercised your free will, the same person who asks “why does God give grace to him and not the other” could be asked, “why did God place this man in these circumstances in his life as opposed to other circumstances that would affect his exercise of will”.
 
diggerdomer said:
This 1913 article leaves me with the same question. Do you think otherwise? Is there a particular passage you’re referring to?

Thanks anyway.
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“Between these two extremes the Catholic dogma of predestination keeps the golden mean, because it regards eternal happiness primarily as the work of God and His grace, but secondarily as the fruit and reward of the meritorious actions of the predestined. The process of predestination consists of the following five steps: (a) the first grace of vocation, especially faith as the beginning, foundation, and root of justification; (b) a number of additional, actual graces for the successful accomplishment of justification; (c) justification itself as the beginning of the state of grace and love; (d) final perseverance or at least the grace of a happy death; (e) lastly, the admission to eternal bliss. If it is a truth of Revelation that there are many who, following this path, seek and find their eternal salvation with infallible certainty, then the existence of Divine predestination is proved (cf. Matt., xxv, 34; Apoc., xx, 15). St. Paul says quite explicitly (Rom., viii, 28 sq.): “we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the first born amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Cf. Eph., i, 4-11.) Besides the eternal “foreknowledge” and foreordaining, the Apostle here mentions the various steps of predestination: “vocation”, “justification”, and “glorification”. This belief has been faithfully preserved by Tradition through all the centuries, especially since the time of Augustine.”

To me that means some people are predestined to be saved so in a way their freewill is guided.
 
thistle said:
“Between these two extremes the Catholic dogma of predestination keeps the golden mean, because it regards eternal happiness primarily as the work of God and His grace, but secondarily as the fruit and reward of the meritorious actions of the predestined. The process of predestination consists of the following five steps: (a) the first grace of vocation, especially faith as the beginning, foundation, and root of justification; (b) a number of additional, actual graces for the successful accomplishment of justification; (c) justification itself as the beginning of the state of grace and love; (d) final perseverance or at least the grace of a happy death; (e) lastly, the admission to eternal bliss. If it is a truth of Revelation that there are many who, following this path, seek and find their eternal salvation with infallible certainty, then the existence of Divine predestination is proved (cf. Matt., xxv, 34; Apoc., xx, 15). St. Paul says quite explicitly (Rom., viii, 28 sq.): “we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the first born amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Cf. Eph., i, 4-11.) Besides the eternal “foreknowledge” and foreordaining, the Apostle here mentions the various steps of predestination: “vocation”, “justification”, and “glorification”. This belief has been faithfully preserved by Tradition through all the centuries, especially since the time of Augustine.”

To me that means some people are predestined to be saved so in a way their freewill is guided.
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Thanks. As long as no one thinks that when the Church uses the term “predestination” it denies free will (see CCC 600).
 
diggerdomer said:
If you think anyone is predestined for heaven then aren’t you denying free will?
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You don’t have to. It’s called compatibilism. The Bible talks about both free will and predestination/election on plenty of occasions, so you kind of have to be a compatibilist.

Predestination: Romans 8:29 and 30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11.
Election: 10 times in 5 different chapters, but Mark 13:22 and Romans 11:7 are the ones that do more than simply label a group of people “elect.”
Foreknew: Romans 8:29 again, Romans 11:2.

There’s a comparable number of passages that demonstrate free will- “Choose life, that you might live” comes to mind- but those kinds of passages don’t have those easy-to-find buzzwords. At least half of the passages in support of free will are ones where free will is strongly implied or where the passage makes no sense without the existence of free will. I’ve gone through some of those lists before, but I’m not going to right now.

Theopedia is very nice, and it provides us with these pages to look at:

theopedia.com/Free_will
theopedia.com/Predestination

It is a topic that’s mostly limited to Protestant discussions, but at least this allows you to get familiar with terms like “hard determinism,” “double predestination,” “libertarian freedom,” “open theism,” and “compatibilism.” I mean, you don’t have to, but if any of you are interested and want to, it’s there.

One reason I like Calvinism is the opportunity it gives for great one-liners. This is one of my favorites:

So, are you a Calvinist?

As if I could be anything else!

Gotta love predestination/determinism jokes. There’s plenty more where that came from. I’ll spare you, though.
 
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