Predestination

[DEESYPAL]

When I read these words, I felt the calvanists are right about pre-destination. Is this true?
John 17: 9
I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;

 

[Eucharisted]

Jesus is God and God is all-knowing. He’d know who made it to Heaven and who didn’t

 

[kepha1]

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.
Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.
1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.
Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory). Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

follow up here: scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-III

 

[OchsFam]

I think a good book you should read in regards to this is James Akin’s “Salvation Controversy.”

There are many things in the Calvinistic TULIP that a Catholic would agree with, but there are some fundamental differences. Predestination has one of them. Kepha1 mentioned the primary difference in our understanding of predestination and theirs which is foreknowledge. They do not acknowledge God basing his decision on anything we do. Catholics might say the decision is based on God knowing how we would respond to His Grace. Basically, the predestined are those God knew would “pass” judgment. This is an oversimplification and please correct anything I may have misspoken on but this is the way I understand it. It is a complicated subject because we are attempting to explain something using terms that do not apply (ie. predestination does not Biblically mean what we apply it as today as evident in kepha1’s post and the concept that time does not apply to God).

I would read the book because Calvinist appear to have a strong argument on all of their TULIP doctrine, but when you start looking into their “proof texts,” you start seeing the glaring holes in their understanding. Using what you have quoted in John 17:9 for example would be a blatant disregard for what is said in Rom 8:29 if you do not understand some foreknowledge was involved in the predestination.

 

[bmadamsberry]

My philosophy professor taught me this:
Enternity is not a time line that stretches from the beginning to the end, but rather eternity is an ever present. It is always in the present. Picture a time line that is history. You have a definate beginning and a definate end. G-d is not on the time line looking ahead to the future, because G-d exists outside of time. Imagine G-d as above the time line, where he can look at the end of time while at the same time looking at the beginning of time.

I hope that helps a little. He explained it a lot better, and if pushed I could probably clarify some points. This really helped to give me an idea of how to understand these verses and still not believe in ‘predestination’.

 

[mikeledes]

The Catholic Church teaches predestination as a dogma and hence all faithful Catholics must believe in predestination. Since predestination is closely associated with Calvinism, many Catholics assume that this is not a teaching of the Catholic Church and end up with an Arminian understanding. While Catholics are not Calvinists, we are not Arminians either. So predestination is NOT GOD MERELY CHOOSING US ON THE BASIS OF HIS FOREKOWLEDGE OF OUR ACTIONS. I repeat, predestination is not mere divine foreknowledge of our choices. That is Arminianism, not Catholicism. We need to be careful not to fall into the Arminian error. Here are some helpful websites on Catholic predestination:

nicenetruth.com/home/2008/10/catholic-predes.html

thesumma.info/predestination/index.php

The Catholic Thomist View:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

Molinist Catholic View:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

newadvent.org/cathen/10437a.htm

BTW, Moinism is not the “Arminian” alternative. While divine foreknowledge of our choices play a role in this view, it is not the determining factor in Molinism. It’s not that God simply forsees our choices and then choses us. That’s the Arminian view.

God Bless,
Michael