Predestination

[PhanxicoXavier]

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Since in reality only those reach heaven who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace, all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin, are converted on their death-beds. The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans.

This is from the **1913 **Catholic Encyclopaedia.

This further proves Pope Saint Pius X’s point that Modernists had already infiltrated the Church, even before his own reign. Pope Saint Pius V and Pope Saint Pius X, pray for us.

 

[Eucharisted]

The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace

Meditate on those words, because you’re missing the point.

 

[PeterMuz]

I agree, I believe the point has been missed. Its not that we or anyone else was predestined, but that God in his infinite knowledge of the future knew the choices we would make, whether or not our hearts were in the right place and when we would die. If we were predestined, that would take away free will.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

I agree, I believe the point has been missed. Its not that we or anyone else was predestined, but that God in his infinite knowledge of the future knew the choices we would make, whether or not our hearts were in the right place and when we would die. If we were predestined, that would take away free will.

No, the point has not been missed. If one dies a Jew, Mohammedan, or pagan, then it is impossible to be in a state of grace, since the stain of original sin has not been taken away by Baptism – Protestants and schismatics die in a state of schism, and possibly heresy, which are both mortal sins. I am not talking about “predestination” in a Calvinist sense.

 

[Jacafamala]

No, the point has not been missed. If one dies a Jew, Mohammedan, or pagan, then it is impossible to be in a state of grace, since the stain of original sin has not been taken away by Baptism – Protestants and schismatics die in a state of schism, and possibly heresy, which are both mortal sins. I am not talking about “predestination” in a Calvinist sense.

There are three kinds of baptism, water (usual way), blood or desire. So, if no mortal sin is present on the soul, and one of these three kinds of baptism applies, then that person is headed for heaven. Happy, that.

 

[Lujack]

No, the point has not been missed. If one dies a Jew, Mohammedan, or pagan, then it is impossible to be in a state of grace, since the stain of original sin has not been taken away by Baptism –

Omitting, of course, the possibility of baptism of blood or desire.

Protestants and schismatics die in a state of schism, and possibly heresy, which are both mortal sins. I am not talking about “predestination” in a Calvinist sense.

Omitting, of course, the three necessary conditions of mortal sin, which may not be present.

 

[PJM]

=PhanxicoXavier;5851112]newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

This is from the **1913 **Catholic Encyclopaedia.

This further proves Pope Saint Pius X’s point that Modernists had already infiltrated the Church, even before his own reign. Pope Saint Pius V and Pope Saint Pius X, pray for us.

My dear friend in Christ,

Having read your post several times I am still unclear as to what point you are trying to make, beyond the “moderinist” theroy?

If by implication you are suggesting that Pope St. Pius X is advocating actual “predestination” as the position of the Catholic Church, you could not be more off track? I’m unclear as to wether this is your position or not?

**Rom.8:[29] “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those” ** Ect.

This is the explaination from Haydock’s Catholic Commentary: Ver. 29. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son, in suffering with Christ, in following his doctrine, in imitating his life. This foreknowledge of God, according to St. Augustine,[6] is not merely a foreseeing of what men will do by the assistance and graces of God’s ordinary providence, much less a foreseeing of what they will do by their own natural strength, as the Pelagian heretics pretended: but is a foreknowledge including an act of the divine will, and of his love towards his elect servants; (as to know in the Scriptures, when applied to God, is many times the same as to approve and love)** God therefore hath foreseen or predestinated, or decreed that these elect, by the help of his special graces, and by the co-operation of their free-will, should be conformable to the image of his Son, that so his Son**, even as man, might be the first-born, the chief, and the head of all that shall be saved. (Witham) — God hath preordained that all his elect shall be conformable to the image of his Son. We must not here offer to dive into the secrets of God’s eternal election: only firmly believe that all our good, in time and eternity, flows originally from God’s free goodness; and all our evil from man’s free will

Pope Saint pius the X holds the same understanding.

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

Omitting, of course, the possibility of baptism of blood or desire.

Omitting, of course, the three necessary conditions of mortal sin, which may not be present.

I think that you misunderstand. Baptism of Blood/Desire only apply to catechumens (even then I’m unsure if they are even valid, but this is not a thread about either of them).
Cantate Domino:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

So if a Protestant is killed for his faith, it is of no avail if he is not united to the Catholic Church before his death. There is no Baptism of Blood for Protestants.

Baptism unites a soul to the Church, so it doesn’t matter if someone hasn’t committed a single mortal sin in their entire life if they aren’t a baptised Catholic - original sin is still there.

The quote that I posted in my first post says directly that *there is *salvation outside the Catholic Church.

Since in reality only those reach heaven who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace, all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin, are converted on their death-beds. The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans.

That is what I find disturbing.

 

[Jacafamala]

I think that you misunderstand. Baptism of Blood/Desire only apply to catechumens (even then I’m unsure if they are even valid, but this is not a thread about either of them).

Baptism of desire applies to all those who love God and wish to do all that is necessary for salvation. Your definition of Baptism by desire leaves out all non-Catholic children and idiots.

So if a Protestant is killed for his faith, it is of no avail if he is not united to the Catholic Church before his death. There is no Baptism of Blood for Protestants.

We don’t know for sure who is going to hell and who isn’t. Only those who stubbornly persist in their defiance against Christ’s Church and or have unrepented mortal sins will go to hell.

Baptism unites a soul to the Church, so it doesn’t matter if someone hasn’t committed a single mortal sin in their entire life if they aren’t a baptised Catholic - original sin is still there.

If a Protestant, through no fault of their own is left unaware or uninformed of the true Church, and they desire to do all the is necessary for salvation, then Baptism of desire applies.

The quote that I posted in my first post says directly that *there is *salvation outside the Catholic Church. That is what I find disturbing.

In my Baltimore Catechism they have a little illustration of life rafts that have been tied to the Barque of Peter and thrown out to these individuals. Cute, right?

 

[PJM]

=PhanxicoXavier;-I think that you misunderstand. Baptism of Blood/Desire only apply to catechumens (even then I’m unsure if they are even valid, but this is not a thread about either of them).

So if a Protestant is killed for his faith, it is of no avail if he is not united to the Catholic Church before his death. There is no Baptism of Blood for Protestants.

**
A ponit of clairfication.**

If one is a Christian Baptized person [Christian and or Catholic-Christian] that Baptism surfices for a lifetime. And as Baptism leaves an indellible mark on ones soul, no further Baptiam, be it by Water in The Spirit, In Blood or Desire has any additional or “current” effect. One may and can only be Baptized once in Water and Spirit.

Baptism unites a soul to the Church, so it doesn’t matter if someone hasn’t committed a single mortal sin in their entire life if they aren’t a baptised Catholic - original sin is still there.

**Not so! **

The Church acepts as valid all Christian Baptisms done with water, in the name of the Blessed Trinity. So a Baptized Chrsitian comming into the CC cannot be Baptized a second time so long as the orginal Baptism is Christian, and can be verified. If it cannot be verified then a “Conditional Baptism” is preformed. Meaning “In case you were not Baptized,” I Baptize you in the name of the Father [pour water] the Son [pour water] and the Holy Spirit [pour water.]

One of the common effects of Christian Baptism is the COMPLETE, Itmediate removal of all sin [including Orginal sin] as well as the effects of sin.

The quote that I posted in my first post says directly that *there is *salvation outside the Catholic Church. That is what I find disturbing.

Why? Do you know better than God?

The position of the Catholic Church is that all Salvations CONTINUES to be through Her [Mother Church.]

Christians outside of Catholic communion, share a common Baptism, and a common belief in a Triune God, and so long as God [for reasosns ONLY GOD KNOWS] does not offer the grace to know and understand the TRUTH of His Catholic Church, and is not simply stubborn about there position, salvation remains by God’s Divine and Perfect Justice, available to such persons.

CCC 1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. “For freedom Christ has set us free.” In him we have communion with the “truth that makes us free.” The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, “Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” Already we glory in the “liberty of the children of God.”

**CCC 780 **“The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men.”

**CCC 846 **“How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it".

Faith, Wisdom, Understanding are all gifts from God. BUT they are given as God Wills, not necessarly as we ask for them.

In Divine Justice, God who can be described as “all good things Perfectly” in order to be God, must in an absolute sense, make salvation POSSIBLE, sufficient grace possible to every human creature, to freely chose Salvation. Many decline this offer, as is there freewill.

 

[gentle_atheist]

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

The last sentence is a non sequitur. It does not follow logically from the sentence that precedes it. This is so typical of the Novus Ordo Church.

 

[Kook]

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

This is from the **1913 **Catholic Encyclopaedia.

This further proves Pope Saint Pius X’s point that Modernists had already infiltrated the Church, even before his own reign. Pope Saint Pius V and Pope Saint Pius X, pray for us.

You mean the same Pius X who wrote this:

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

Or was Archbishop Lefebvre one of the modernists you’re talking about?

Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian’s formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire… .

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God. As priests we must state the truth.

Granted, in the technical sense any such person who died may not be in visibly united to the Church, but then again, neither are Protestant children baptized as infants.

Any such individuals listed in the CE entry who die being granted the grace of perfect contrition and charity will be joined to the bosom of the Church and be saved. It’s that simple.

 

[gentle_atheist]

If an unbaptized baby cannot enter heaven then how can an unbaptized Jew, Moslem, or pagan enter heaven? Can you work off Original Sin?

 

[Filioque]

If an unbaptized baby cannot enter heaven then how can an unbaptized Jew, Moslem, or pagan enter heaven? Can you work off Original Sin?

Nowhere has the Church determined that an unbaptized baby cannot enter into heaven. Neither has the Church determined dogmatically that they do. Speculation exists among theologians that either they are given an eternal life of perfect natural happiness, or that they are given knowledge sufficient to make a choice to accept God or reject Him. This however is not dogmatic.

As to Jews, Muslims and Pagans, Fr. Lombardi, Riccardo, SJ in his book, The Salvation of the Unbeliever covers the position of the Church on Invincible Ignorance, and how the Church holds that graces that come to the world from Christ through the Church are not excluded to those who are unaware or have not had the opportunity to hear in an unbiased manner the teachings of the Catholic Church. This was also touched on by Pope Pius XII in his encyclical on the Mystical Body of Christ, and other writings.

I know that Fr. Feeney and his followers deny that this is the Authentic Teaching of the Church, but I find little merit in their position. Many of the claims of various writings as being “Infallible” and “Ex Cathedra” are only held as such by themselves, and they tend discount any other writing which contradicts their own position.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

Nowhere has the Church determined that an unbaptized baby cannot enter into heaven. Neither has the Church determined dogmatically that they do. Speculation exists among theologians that either they are given an eternal life of perfect natural happiness, or that they are given knowledge sufficient to make a choice to accept God or reject Him. This however is not dogmatic.

The Church has determined however, that baptism is necessary for salvation, as per the words of Jesus Christ – therefore, it is only a moral certainty to say that people that unfortunately die without baptism cannot go to Heaven, which means that they cannot go to Purgatory either – leaving only one alternative.

As to Jews, Muslims and Pagans, Fr. Lombardi, Riccardo, SJ in his book, The Salvation of the Unbeliever covers the position of the Church on Invincible Ignorance, and how the Church holds that graces that come to the world from Christ through the Church are not excluded to those who are unaware or have not had the opportunity to hear in an unbiased manner the teachings of the Catholic Church. This was also touched on by Pope Pius XII in his encyclical on the Mystical Body of Christ, and other writings.

How can a practising Jew be invincibly ignorant of the True Church of Christ? The Talmud, Judaism’s “holiest” book blasphemes Jesus Christ and Mary (calling Christ a sorcerer that is boiling in excrement in Hell, and calling the Blessed Virgin an immoral "hair-dresser)! The Old Testament clearly points only to Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Similarly, the Qu’ran blasphemes the Holy Trinity, calling it a false god, and says that all the followers of Christ will burn in Hell. The Qu’ran also says that Christ will come and destroy Christianity, and convert the world to Islam. Also the Qu’ran challenges Muslims to put their book to the test in terms of proving its authenticity – if they truly did this in good faith, they would throw that book of paganism and heresies in the garbage and join the Church!

I know that Fr. Feeney and his followers deny that this is the Authentic Teaching of the Church, but I find little merit in their position. Many of the claims of various writings as being “Infallible” and “Ex Cathedra” are only held as such by themselves, and they tend discount any other writing which contradicts their own position.

I am not a “Feenyite”. I accept Baptism of Desire as a tradition of the Church.

Or was Archbishop Lefebvre one of the modernists you’re talking about?

I have always been deeply troubled by that quote of his.

 

[MarcoPolo]

How can a practising Jew be invincibly ignorant of the True Church of Christ?

What if it’s a moderately practicing Jew? Or a non-practicing Jew who grows up in a family not focused in faith, strives to follow his conscience as best he can, and dies before he is given adequate knowledge to draw him into the Catholic Church? I say his good heart is utilizing none other than the grace God has planted in his heart, and thus can be saved by the blood of Christ. To damn such a person would be God playing “gotcha—you didn’t formally go through the motions (even though you had not the chance) even though your heart is oriented in the right place.” Thus, the Catholic Church has never identified anyone in history in hell.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

What if it’s a moderately practicing Jew? Or a non-practicing Jew who grows up in a family not focused in faith, strives to follow his conscience as best he can, and dies before he is given adequate knowledge to draw him into the Catholic Church? I say his good heart is utilizing none other than the grace God has planted in his heart, and thus can be saved by the blood of Christ. To damn such a person would be God playing “gotcha—you didn’t formally go through the motions (even though you had not the chance) even though your heart is oriented in the right place.” Thus, the Catholic Church has never identified anyone in history in hell.

Hi!

Have you read the story of Blessed Caius of Corea?

vanitasomnia.blogspot.com/2009/08/story-of-blessed-caius-of-corea.html

The 19th century French Catholic missionary Claude-Charles Dallet wrote of him in his A history of the church in Korea, “His history proves, in a dazzling way, that God would rather make a miracle than abandon an infidel who follows the lights of his conscience, and seeks the truth with an upright and docile heart.”

 

[Filioque]

First I would ask you if you have read the Talmud yourself? Secondly the Talmud is not the most sacred book of the Jews, it is a collection of commentaries on the Torah (actually there are two different Talmud) and other questions that arose. It is subdevided into several collections. One thing that anyone who has read the Talmud will know is that there are often arguments that look at the same passages from completly opposite interpretations.

As to the statements that you say the Talmud makes against our Lord and Lady, I was raised a Jew, and a very observant one at that. I did study Talmud, and the verses are deliberate mistranslations of the text.

As a Catholic now, with a pre-Vatican II catholic education, I understand that no Pagan, Jew or Muslim is saved by his religion, but rather by the Graces of Jesus, through the Catholic Church. While I would encourage you to find the book I mentioned earlier, and give it a good and prayerful read. To save myself (from wearing my fingers out) I’d also suggest you read through these thouroughly Catholic links by the well respectd and late Fr. John Hardon, SJ. therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_003.htm
therealpresence.org/archives/Church_Dogma/Church_Dogma_032.htm
therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_004.htm

As to Fr. Feeney and his errors, the comment was not directed at you, but that those who hold his errors would disagree with my posting.

You will also find many good articles by Fr. Hardon in the above site, I’d suggest you read what he writes about the Talmud, and the Mishna, as well as other sources of Rabbinic commentaries. He remains (as he always did) honest, and 100% Catholic.

As to Blesseds and Saints, in particular their writings, they are not infallible, few have been canonized for what they wrote, but rather for their heroic life lived or in the case of martyrs died for Christ, and the Faith. While aside from the Doctors of the Church, like St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Bonaventure, the writings of these great men and women may be filled with great spiritual food, I would hesitate to offer them as proof of the condemnation of anyone to the fires of hell.

 

[gentle_atheist]

From the CCC:

1260 …Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God…

So the Muslims who flew the planes into the World Trade Center are very likely in heaven now because they were doing the will of God as they saw it.

As for the baby who dies before being baptised? Well, may God have mercy on its soul.

Brilliant soteriology.

 

[Jacafamala]

From the CCC:
So the Muslims who flew the planes into the World Trade Center are very likely in heaven now because they were doing the will of God as they saw it.

The Catholic Church never claims to know definitively who is and who isn’t in hell. That said, anyone who could commit such a horrible atrocity clearly doesn’t want goodness and truth. Natural law is written on every heart and they chose grave evil over good.

Gentle Atheist: As for the baby who dies before being baptised? Well, may God have mercy on its soul.

I believe He does.

Matthew 18:2 And Jesus calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them, 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:13 Then were little children presented to him, that he should impose hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such. 15 And when he had imposed hands upon them, he departed from thence.

Brilliant soteriology.

Perhaps you’re looking at the extremes and pushing them to the extent that they become distorted.