Predestination

[PeterMuz]

No, the point has not been missed. If one dies a Jew, Mohammedan, or pagan, then it is impossible to be in a state of grace, since the stain of original sin has not been taken away by Baptism – Protestants and schismatics die in a state of schism, and possibly heresy, which are both mortal sins. I am not talking about “predestination” in a Calvinist sense.

Nothing is impossible with God. God alone judges our hearts. There is such thing as Baptism by desire. People are only judged based on what they know. A Jew or a pagan who has never had a REAL understanding of God, his love, forgiveness, Sacraments, etc has just a good of a chance as you or I in making it to Heaven. God does not only judge actions or inactions, but the heart.

 

[PeterMuz]

No, the point has not been missed. If one dies a Jew, Mohammedan, or pagan, then it is impossible to be in a state of grace, since the stain of original sin has not been taken away by Baptism – Protestants and schismatics die in a state of schism, and possibly heresy, which are both mortal sins. I am not talking about “predestination” in a Calvinist sense.

Do you really believe that God would let a child who is born but dies before they have a chance to be baptized go hell, because they have the stain of original sin?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Hi!

Have you read the story of Blessed Caius of Corea?

vanitasomnia.blogspot.com/2009/08/story-of-blessed-caius-of-corea.html

No, what is there to be garnered from this story in light of predestination?

 

[MarcoPolo]

So the Muslims who flew the planes into the World Trade Center are very likely in heaven now because they were doing the will of God as they saw it.

Who says they were doing God’s will as they saw it? They could have been violating their own consciences for the sake of obeying their peers.

 

[Filioque]

From the CCC:
So the Muslims who flew the planes into the World Trade Center are very likely in heaven now because they were doing the will of God as they saw it.

As for the baby who dies before being baptised? Well, may God have mercy on its soul.

Brilliant soteriology.

As I posted on another thread, it would be an error to limit oneself to the Cathechism. Like a “Readers Digest” version, or even more trunkated, a Cliff Notes, the Catechism spells out in very simple and plain language complex ideas, and does not delve into all the complexities and nuances.

The Catechism at best should lead one to desire to learn more about the Faith. At least, for those who have limited abilities to lean or are starting on the learning curve, it provides basic information.

Further study into what the Church teaches about those invincibly ignorant reveals that the Church holds that such a person (while we ourselves may not know the disposition of their soul) is still held to the Natural Law. Throughout the world societies hold that adultery, murder, suicide, stealing, and other “anti-social” behavior are wrong. From what I know about Islam, it is normally sinful to kill or to commit suicide. Even with the brainwashing that goes along with the Madras (sp?) education, we see that the suicide bombers rather than going to the Mosque the night before the attacks went out to drink. Evidence I think that they knew at some level, or had a discomfort with and needed the extra “courage” to accomplish their evil deed.

On the other hand, how much personal guilt does someone who is psychologically damaged by brainwashing to believe that an immoral act is moral? I’m not ready to judge one way or the other. I do however advocate preventive measures to avoid further acts of terrorism. That would include attempts to reach out to the Islamic community and find common ground, to present ourselves as friends and not enemies of Muslims.

Those Muslims I have known for years disavow the acts of Terrorists, and insist that like Fundimentalists who protest at US Military funerals and bomb Abortion Clinics, the terrorists
are an not the rule in Islam. Starting with people like these who are not supportive of terrorists in their own community, we can hopefully reach those who are at most risk for conversion to Jihad. Much the same as anyone who poses a physical threat to others, we do need to identify those who pose that risk and if it is determined to be a real threat, remove them from the general population and give them the appropriate treatment.

This is all a long winded posting that cannot by it’s nature be all inclusive. But to summarize, most things are not black and white. When it comes to what motivates people, since my crystal ball is in the shop, and I can’t read someones mind or soul today, it becomes even more fuzzy.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

The last sentence is a non sequitur. It does not follow logically from the sentence that precedes it. This is so typical of the Novus Ordo Church.

Dear Gentle Atheist. I read your tag, wherein you say you were turned Atheist by John Paul II. Instead of turning Atheist, you should have turned Traditionalist.

I agree with you 100% that Catholics are being led astray by misleading documents coming from those in authority. This crisis that the Church is experiencing is a just punishment from God. St. John Eudes said that the surest sign of God’s anger with his people is that he gives them bad leaders. The leaders we have today only confirm how angry God must be with the Catholics - and who can blame Him?

The crisis that the Church is experiencing today has been predicted many times in great detail. In fact, the date itself was given by Our Lady of Good Success about 400 years ago. She said it would begin “in the second half of the 20th century”.

Many Catholics are aware of what you yourself discovered; namely, that Catholics today are being misled by their leaders. However, they don’t react the way you did. The correct reaction is not to abandon God, but to “hold fast to Tradition”. Find yourself a good Traditional Church. Make an appointment with the Priest and go talk to him. Trust me, he will understand you completely, and will have great sympathy for your concerns.

In finding a good Traditional Church, you will find great peace of soul; and, rather than abandoning God, you will probably become a great defender of the Faith. That is the road you should take. I will be praying for you.

 

[Filioque]

Who says they were doing God’s will as they saw it? They could have been violating their own consciences for the sake of obeying their peers.

I wish I had the ability to wrap things up in a short and cogent posting. I tend to ramble. Good answer. The question too is good, not because it reflects a fault in Catholic teaching, but because it is asked by many people, and without honest discussion, it is sometimes difficult to know how to answer questions like this when the rise up in daily conversation.

 

[Contarini]

How can a practising Jew be invincibly ignorant of the True Church of Christ?

I think it would be rather hard for a Jew not to be “invincibly ignorant,” given the despicable way they have been treated by Christians in the past.

The Talmud, Judaism’s “holiest” book

No, that would be the actual Written Torah. You know, the same one we have as the first five books of our Bible. And then there’s the rest of the TaNaKH. (You appear to be very ignorant of Judaism–whether your ignorance is vincible or not is between you and God.) But sure, the Talmud is very important.

blasphemes Jesus Christ and Mary (calling Christ a sorcerer that is boiling in excrement in Hell, and calling the Blessed Virgin an immoral "hair-dresser)!

Possibly. The references are obscure and Jews today do not generally apply them to Jesus, whatever may have been the original intent. But even if what you say were true, that would make Jews more likely to be invincibly ignorant. If you have grown up being told lies about Christianity, you are not responsible for believing those lies until you have good evidence that they are false. Similarly, it’s possible that your own abominable attitude to anyone who doesn’t fit your extremely narrow view of Catholicism is not your own fault. For your own sake I hope it is. Otherwise your soul is in serious danger.

The Old Testament clearly points only to Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

It’s not clear. Obviously I believe this is the best way to read it, but there are plenty of reasonable people who think otherwise.

I have always been deeply troubled by that quote of his.

I probably should find out all the things that trouble you and hang the list on my wall. From the samples I’ve seen so far, they seem likely to be very good and holy things.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

From the CCC:

So the Muslims who flew the planes into the World Trade Center are very likely in heaven now because they were doing the will of God as they saw it.

If they were actually invincibly ignorant. Given how clearly their actions violated natural law, I’m not terribly optimistic. But I can hope that they are in Purgatory. They certainly were not ready for the Beatific Vision at the time they died.

As for the baby who dies before being baptised? Well, may God have mercy on its soul.

Indeed. There’s nothing better we can say about anyone’s soul. You talk about God’s mercy as if it’s something bad or undependable. Very odd.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Dear Gentle Atheist. I read your tag, wherein you say you were turned Atheist by John Paul II. Instead of turning Atheist, you should have turned Traditionalist.

Given most of the things I see Traditionalists saying on this forum, I think being an atheist may be better for his soul.

Edwin

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Given most of the things I see Traditionalists saying on this forum, I think being an atheist may be better for his soul.

Edwin

Coming from you that statement makes perfect sense. After all, you are a professed Episcopalian. Now, since Episcopalians are heretics; and since heretics are, by definition, unbelievers, it makes sense that you would consider it better for a person’s soul to be a fellow unbeliever with yourself, rather than a believer.

The one thing that unbelievers of various degrees have in common is their opposition to believers. They can tolerate each other, but not true believers. Therefore, your comments makes perfect sense.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

The Talmud is Judaism’s holiest book. If you want, I can provide you with the link from which I got the two following quotes.

(Michael Hoffman, by the way is a respecatable scholar, and a faithful Roman Catholic)
Michael A. Hoffman II:

The Talmud is Judaism’s holiest book (actually a collection of books). Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): “My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament).”

Michael A. Hoffman II:

Rabbi Joseph D. Soloveitchik is regarded as one of the most influential rabbis of the 20th century, the “unchallenged leader” of Orthodox Judaism and the top international authority on halakha (Jewish religious law). Soloveitchik was responsible for instructing and ordaining more than 2,000 rabbis, “an entire generation” of Jewish leadership.

N.Y. Times religion reporter Ari Goldman described the basis of the rabbi’s authority:

“Soloveitchik came from a long line of distinguished Talmudic scholars…Until his early 20s, he devoted himself almost exclusively to the study of the Talmud…He came to Yeshiva University’s Elchanan Theological Seminary where he remained the pre-eminent teacher in the Talmud…He held the title of Leib Merkin professor of Talmud…sitting with his feet crossed in front of a table bearing an open volume of the Talmud.” (N.Y. Times, April 10, 1993, p. 38).

Nowhere does Goldman refer to Soloveitchik’s knowledge of the Bible as the basis for being one of the leading authorities on Jewish law.

The rabbi’s credentials are all predicated upon his mastery of the Talmud. Other studies are clearly secondary. Britain’s Jewish Chronicle of March 26, 1993 states that in religious school (yeshiva), Jews are “devoted to the Talmud to the exclusion of everything else.”

To those who say that Jews can be invincibly ignorant, this is from a Judaic website:

noahide.com/yeshu.htm

The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of “Jesus the Nazarene”:

1. He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
2. He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
3. He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh—which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

---

Back to the original encyclopaedia entry though – doesn’t anyone think that God would give a truly good-willed pagan (like Blessed Caius of Corea) a chance to be baptised and enter into the Church?

 

[PJM]

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

The reply

The last sentence is a non sequitur. It does not follow logically from the sentence that precedes it. This is so typical of the Novus Ordo Church.

Dear friend,

Why of course it does.

Similar to the three conditions that must be met before a sin is a 'Mortal Sin" sufficent to condem oneself to Hell for Eternitiy, because of its seriousness, [Serious Matter, Pre-knowledge that this act is a Mortal sin, and desire to do it anyway], God who conforming to His Divine and Perfect Nature, must [in an absolute sense] be both Just and Fair.

If one through no personal fault one is unaware that it is in God’s Plan for our personal salvation, that one must be [again, in an absolute sense] alligned with His Catholic Church in order to be saved, such a person **will not **be judged the same as those of us in Christ One Church, or the many who have been exposed to the Single Truth, but for a varity of reasons said NO to God’s Will.

That is not new or changed; it is only a fuller understanding. All salvation continues to flow through the Catholic Church by virtue of a Common Baptism and belief in our Triune Godhead.

That friend is Divine and Perfect Justice. It has nothing to do with what you term the Novus Ordo church [which by the way still practices the Seven Sacraments VALIDLY!]

As one who has read extensively, the writtings of Pope John Paul II, and knowing that he was enoumously successful in saving souls, I would GREATLY appreciate knowing how seemingly this good and holy man, seems to have had the opposite effect on you. PLEASE friend, share your story.

I am no fan of the Novus Ordo Mass and its many abuses either. BUT!

Love and prayers friend,

Pat

 

[MarcoPolo]

I wish I had the ability to wrap things up in a short and cogent posting. I tend to ramble. Good answer. The question too is good, not because it reflects a fault in Catholic teaching, but because it is asked by many people, and without honest discussion, it is sometimes difficult to know how to answer questions like this when the rise up in daily conversation.

Thanks, friend.

 

[Filioque]

After viewing the Chasidic link you posted it explains quite a bit.

Little known facts about Chabad Lubavich.

In the 1860’s when the Lubavich movement was gaining strength in Poland, (Lubavich is a small town) the question of who was authentically Jewish and what it means to be a Jew came up. There were many questions forced on Jews in Europe because not much earlier the Reform movement had been organized, up until that point there were only two real classifications of Jews in Eastern Europe, Observant and Non-Observant. In different regions the communities would follow in the school of one or another local Rabbi who was know for their learning. In Lubavich the Lubavicher Rebbi, grew in prominence and began to rant against the Jews who had abandoned what he regarded as proper dress, and observance. With Jews converting to Chrisitanity, and the virulent Anti-Semetic climate in Eastern Europe at the time, he also lashed out at Christianity. Since Eastern Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church were most prominent he focused on them.

Because of the controversies that the Lubavicher Rebbi caused, the Bet Din, (Rabbinic Court) in Slutzk was asked about them. The Bet Din of Slutzk, was sort of the Supreme Court of European Jews. They took a step that has only been taken a very few times in Jewish History. In fact the penalty that the Lubavich movement has been placed under was not even given to Jesus or Chrisitanity. The Lubavichim were excommunicated.

The present day Lubavich movement will not tell you that they are excommunicated, and if you ask they will tell you that it was an invalid excommunication, because their Rabbi is the only truly Jewish mouthpiece of the Law. They play on the ignorance of Jews and Christians alike. Many who see them with their long beards, sidelocks and “Traditional” clothing associate them as being as being “Traditional” and “Truly Orthodox” the fact is quite the opposite. Playing on the ignorance surrounding their excommunication they act in a very cultlike manner, they approach those who they think may be Jews and “encourage” them to do just one Jewish action, or Mitzvah (good deed) slowly they lure people into their communities first with mild pressure, and then isolating them from outside influences. They are the Sede Vacantests of the Jewish world. They do not represent Orthodoxy among Judaism, any more than Fundimentalist Baptists represent the teachings of the Catholic Church. They prey on people’s ignorance to recruit other Jews into what they frame as Orthodoxy.

While they have splintered into several small and one larger group, the Lubavichers in Brooklyn tend to believe that Rabbi Schnierson who died a few years back is/was the Messiah, and that is where much of their attacks against any other candidate for Messiah comes from.

In short, they do not represent Jewish thought.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

After viewing the Chasidic link you posted it explains quite a bit.

Little known facts about Chabad Lubavich.

In the 1860’s when the Lubavich movement was gaining strength in Poland, (Lubavich is a small town) the question of who was authentically Jewish and what it means to be a Jew came up. There were many questions forced on Jews in Europe because not much earlier the Reform movement had been organized, up until that point there were only two real classifications of Jews in Eastern Europe, Observant and Non-Observant. In different regions the communities would follow in the school of one or another local Rabbi who was know for their learning. In Lubavich the Lubavicher Rebbi, grew in prominence and began to rant against the Jews who had abandoned what he regarded as proper dress, and observance. With Jews converting to Chrisitanity, and the virulent Anti-Semetic climate in Eastern Europe at the time, he also lashed out at Christianity. Since Eastern Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church were most prominent he focused on them.

Because of the controversies that the Lubavicher Rebbi caused, the Bet Din, (Rabbinic Court) in Slutzk was asked about them. The Bet Din of Slutzk, was sort of the Supreme Court of European Jews. They took a step that has only been taken a very few times in Jewish History. In fact the penalty that the Lubavich movement has been placed under was not even given to Jesus or Chrisitanity. The Lubavichim were excommunicated.

The present day Lubavich movement will not tell you that they are excommunicated, and if you ask they will tell you that it was an invalid excommunication, because their Rabbi is the only truly Jewish mouthpiece of the Law. They play on the ignorance of Jews and Christians alike. Many who see them with their long beards, sidelocks and “Traditional” clothing associate them as being as being “Traditional” and “Truly Orthodox” the fact is quite the opposite. Playing on the ignorance surrounding their excommunication they act in a very cultlike manner, they approach those who they think may be Jews and “encourage” them to do just one Jewish action, or Mitzvah (good deed) slowly they lure people into their communities first with mild pressure, and then isolating them from outside influences. They are the Sede Vacantests of the Jewish world. They do not represent Orthodoxy among Judaism, any more than Fundimentalist Baptists represent the teachings of the Catholic Church. They prey on people’s ignorance to recruit other Jews into what they frame as Orthodoxy.

While they have splintered into several small and one larger group, the Lubavichers in Brooklyn tend to believe that Rabbi Schnierson who died a few years back is/was the Messiah, and that is where much of their attacks against any other candidate for Messiah comes from.

In short, they do not represent Jewish thought.

Hi,

thanks for the clarification.

So what would you recommend as a solid source for Orthodox Judaic beliefs?

 

[Filioque]

Hi, thanks for the clarification.

So what would you recommend as a solid source for Orthodox Judaic beliefs?

I’d start here. ou.org/torah/judaism_101 You can also do a search with terms like Jesus, and Catholic, you will find it is quite different than the Chasidim. I’ll post a few other sites when I have a bit more time to look around the web. But in the mean time,.look at this article from the website which supports Catholic Charities in California upholding Catholic Moral principles and not allowing the State to force them to provide artificial contraception as part of the Insurance package. The Orthodox Jewish position was that Catholic Charities must not be forced to cave into the Government and provide Insurance benefits that Catholics feel are immoral. ou.org/public/news/bfaith04.htm

You will also notice that there is an emphasis on learning the Torah, and there are Parsha lessons. “Parsha” would be similar to the daily Scripture Readings in the Lectionary or daily masses in a Catholic Church. Like the three year cycle in the OF, and the once year cycle in the EF, Jews read from Torah, (the Law) and the Prophets over a one year period. At the end of the Cycle, the Each year there is a ceremony celebrating the accomplishment. There is another Celebration for restarting the cycle.

While I live, believe and understand the Judaism of my youth through the eyes of a Catholic, we also can support Catholic beliefs in part by showing how the Teachings of Jesus and the Church He founded are rooted in or prefigured by Judaism.

 

[Lujack]

Coming from you that statement makes perfect sense. After all, you are a professed Episcopalian. Now, since Episcopalians are heretics; and since heretics are, by definition, unbelievers, it makes sense that you would consider it better for a person’s soul to be a fellow unbeliever with yourself, rather than a believer.

The one thing that unbelievers of various degrees have in common is their opposition to believers. They can tolerate each other, but not true believers. Therefore, your comments makes perfect sense.

That’s uncharitable, ridiculous, and malicious, actually. If you actually believed the abominable things you claimed to believe, you would never say a bad word to anyone who was not a member of your narrow stripe of Catholicism, because you would then believe that converting them is so utterly important that nothing else mattered.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

That’s uncharitable, ridiculous, and malicious, actually. If you actually believed the abominable things you claimed to believe, you would never say a bad word to anyone who was not a member of your narrow stripe of Catholicism, because you would then believe that converting them is so utterly important that nothing else mattered.

Sometimes rude unbelievers such as Contraini, who make sarcastic comments, need to be told the truth. And I notice you had no reply to his rude comment to me. Not surprising.

He has over 9000 posts on a Catholic message board. Since he is still a professed Episopalian, he is obviously a hardened heretic. He’s beyond the “soft” approach, which should be used with those who are sincerely ignorant, not the rude and hardened unbelievers.

BTW, what “abominable” things are you referring to that I claim to believe? Are you referring to the Catholic faith?

And lastly, where is the flowery charity and “tolerance” in your reply to me? I guess you save that for the professed enemies of the Church.

 

[PJM]

=MarcoPolo- What if it’s a moderately practicing Jew? Or a non-practicing Jew who grows up in a family not focused in faith, strives to follow his conscience as best he can, and dies before he is given adequate knowledge to draw him into the Catholic Church? I say his good heart is utilizing none other than the grace God has planted in his heart, and thus can be saved by the blood of Christ. To damn such a person would be God playing “gotcha—you didn’t formally go through the motions (even though you had not the chance) even though your heart is oriented in the right place.” Thus, the Catholic Church has never identified anyone in history in hell.

God who is “all good things perfected” must as a consequence of His Divine and Perfect Nature must in Divine Justice offer sufficient grace to every man, women and child, past, present and furture to accept God’s personal call for salvation.

This manifest itself in many ways, to accomidate many various situations. It is from this understanding that the Catholic Church claims that one “need not in an absolute sense be a Catholic in order to be saved.”

From this two further points need be made. No one who has been a member of the Catholic Church may leave and be saved. READ Heb. Chapter six.

All Salvation of Christians is mysteriously tied to and channeled through Christ Only Church, by virtue of a common Baptism and belief in our Triune God-head.

Salvation of those who are not, nor have ever been Catholic, or Christian and are not Baptized are the group of souls juded by God, based on opportunity to know Christ and the sum total deeds of there lives.

Catholics and Christians actually judge themselves based too on opportunity to know the truth, accept it and live it. We pass Eternal Judgement on ourselves and God affirms our personal decisions.

OPPORTUNITY to know the truth is seem by God as rejection of truth and judged accordingly.

Love and prayers,

Pat