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Ahimsa
Guest
But if God knew that a soul would never return that love to Him, and thus end up in eternal suffering, why create such a soul in the first place?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Hmmmm . . . how long have you been telling God how to do His business?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
God’s love is beyond our understanding. He created us, out of love, and He saved us out of love.
No doubt He feels sorrow when one of us fails to return His love, but without free will, we wouldn’t be human, would we?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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MooCowSteph
Guest
Here’s something I’ve always wondered about…say someone is shot in an armed robbery. Obviously it isn’t God’s will that the murderer turn into a murderer. He wouldn’t will us to sin. But is it still God’s will that the victim was shot? I wouldn’t think so, but it seems wrong to not think God has a larger plan, that someone could lose his life and it not be God’s will.
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masterjedi747
Guest
Because He loved them infinitely, no matter what. His love is perfect and infinfite…it is not dependent upon the other person returning that love. God created us because He loved us for who we are, and all He asks is that we do our best to return that love to Him by following His laws as best we can. He wants us to return that love to Him…but He can’t force us to. Not only would it be a violation of free will, but it is actually impossible. True love can only be given – never taken. God created us because He loves us and wants us to spend out eternal hppiness with Him in Heaven. But if that’s not what we want, if we cannot honestly humble oursleves before Him and follow Him out of love for Him, then He isn’t going to force us to do so. If you really want to, and if you really think you’ll be happier, then you can simply choose to spend the rest of your life eternally separated from God…but it certainly won’t be much fun.
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masterjedi747
Guest
Because He loved them infinitely, no matter what. His love is perfect and infinfite…it is not dependent upon the other person returning that love. God created us because He loved us for who we are, and all He asks is that we do our best to return that love to Him by following His laws as best we can. He wants us to return that love to Him…but He can’t force us to. Not only would it be a violation of free will, but it is actually impossible. True love can only be given – never taken. God created us because He loves us and wants us to spend out eternal hppiness with Him in Heaven. But if that’s not what we want, if we cannot honestly humble oursleves before Him and follow Him out of love for Him, then He isn’t going to force us to do so. If you really want to, and if you really think you’ll be happier, then you can simply choose to spend the rest of your life eternally separated from God…but it certainly won’t be much fun.
No. But since God already knew that the murderer was going to make that choice, He can easily take that evil action and use it to bring about some greater good. Maybe the murderer will finally get a wake-up call and come back to reality. Maybe the person who was murdered might have otherwise gone on and led an immoral life that would lead them to Hell. Maybe they would have simply been killed in a car accident later that day, and also been responsible for the death of another person – whose great grandson would one day discover a cure for cancer. God’s will is infinite and complex. He doesn’t force anyone to choose evil, but He can easily use their bad decision to bring about an infinitely greater good. But let God be the one to sort all of that stuff out. After all, He’s the only person with the infinite/perfect knowledge required to do so.
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jeffreedy789
Guest
anatheist posted: ‘To let a dice roll naturally or to call a will really free, God must not have any influence on it. Since He is supposed to have created it in the first place, there’s the influence, hence dice do not roll naturally and will is not free.’
this is ridiculous logic. the simple fact that we even HAVE the metaphor of dice shows that your logic is faulty - how could we have dice? dice should be, according to your logic, something that can roll randomly - without influence (although you say it can’t - which is another argument entirely). which means that we humans can make dice - which can roll without our influence (whether or not they roll outside of God’s control is another matter).
it’s ridiculous beyond measure to assume that we can make dice that roll randomly (outside of our influence), yet an all powerful and all-knowing God can’t make man in such a way as to have free will.
the flaw is in the assumption that foreknowledge and omnipotence = influence and interference.
an allpowerful God is as able to NOT interfere as He is to interfere.
this is ridiculous logic. the simple fact that we even HAVE the metaphor of dice shows that your logic is faulty - how could we have dice? dice should be, according to your logic, something that can roll randomly - without influence (although you say it can’t - which is another argument entirely). which means that we humans can make dice - which can roll without our influence (whether or not they roll outside of God’s control is another matter).
it’s ridiculous beyond measure to assume that we can make dice that roll randomly (outside of our influence), yet an all powerful and all-knowing God can’t make man in such a way as to have free will.
the flaw is in the assumption that foreknowledge and omnipotence = influence and interference.
an allpowerful God is as able to NOT interfere as He is to interfere.
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jeffreedy789
Guest
steph asked ‘But is it still God’s will that the victim was shot?’
if you’ve never read ‘silmarillion’ by jrr tolkien, i recommend it. it answers your question beautifully.
but, reckoning that most of you won’t read it, i’ll sum up what he says.
tolkien says that God created the universe beautifully, perfectly, full of love and peace and holiness. He also created it CAPABLE of sinning - ABLE to do evil, if it so chose.
it so chose.
however, no matter how messed up the creations tried to make it, the Creator was so wise and so good and so powerful that He wove all of their sinfulnesses into an even more beautiful song than before. the worse they tried to make it, the more beautiful became the story He was telling, the song He was singing.
that is an answer (albeit a somewhat poetic one) to your question.
God didn’t WILL the person to be killed, in the same way that He WILLED the universe to exist. He didn’t CAUSE it to happen. but in making His creations able to sin, He ALLOWED the person to be killed. but the death is not the end.
Jesus showed us that.
we only see half of the picture, if that. we don’t see how it all ties together on the other side.
but we will.
if you’ve never read ‘silmarillion’ by jrr tolkien, i recommend it. it answers your question beautifully.
but, reckoning that most of you won’t read it, i’ll sum up what he says.
tolkien says that God created the universe beautifully, perfectly, full of love and peace and holiness. He also created it CAPABLE of sinning - ABLE to do evil, if it so chose.
it so chose.
however, no matter how messed up the creations tried to make it, the Creator was so wise and so good and so powerful that He wove all of their sinfulnesses into an even more beautiful song than before. the worse they tried to make it, the more beautiful became the story He was telling, the song He was singing.
that is an answer (albeit a somewhat poetic one) to your question.
God didn’t WILL the person to be killed, in the same way that He WILLED the universe to exist. He didn’t CAUSE it to happen. but in making His creations able to sin, He ALLOWED the person to be killed. but the death is not the end.
Jesus showed us that.
we only see half of the picture, if that. we don’t see how it all ties together on the other side.
but we will.
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