Predestination

[bbas_64]

ralphinal:

It was a book on Calvin that was in the book store. The Essential Calvin I think it was, but I’ll go back and find it. Anyway, the actual teaching was that if you were one of the elect, you could not backslide at all. In other words, though you were tempted, you would not sin. Like you, I totally disagree with that and cannot see where that comes from. I accept the predestination as we should, but I cannot accept that some are created to go to hell and that God does not really love the world as in John 3:16, which Calvinistic predestination in its strictest since teaches

Good day, Ralphinal

Did you read the work by Augustine?

Bill

 

[ralphinal]

I had read the Augustin years ago, but I needed to reread it. One key point is the statement that if one stands, it is by God’s will, if a man falls, it is by his own will. That is not the idea of predestination that I am talking about. I think it would be more of the hyperCalvinistic type. Augustin’s predestination is based on the idea that God knows the end from the beginning and as he is never wrong, the end is always as he foresaw it. We always have true free will. The predestination that I am curious about is the type that says that man cannot chose anything but evil without God and no matter what some people do or beleive they are doomed. Everyone’s posts on this one have been great…

 

[briand]

ralphinal:

Thanks to everyone who responded. Let me say that I do not believe in predestination. I am looking for someone who does to tell me why any of it matters if predestination as Cavin saw it is true. Malachi is exactly right about it. Briand, I am sorry that you lived your life with the beleif that God hated not just the sin but the sinner and the world in which we live. No, that is not the answer. God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, well, you know the rest. No, predestination as Calvin taught it was beyond illogical and just plain against the Gospel. It is a theology that can only lead to depression and sorrow.

Yes it does, of course that has no meaning but it does lead to that. I think the thing that drives my the craziest about the Christian faith, is the utter absolute futility.

 

[bbas_64]

ralphinal:

I had read the Augustin years ago, but I needed to reread it. One key point is the statement that if one stands, it is by God’s will, if a man falls, it is by his own will. That is not the idea of predestination that I am talking about. I think it would be more of the hyperCalvinistic type. Augustin’s predestination is based on the idea that God knows the end from the beginning and as he is never wrong, the end is always as he foresaw it.

Good Day, Ralphina

Do not know if your view of Augustine’s is fair repersentation of his writings.

“Therefore the mercy is past finding out by which He has mercy on whom He will, no merits of his own preceding; and the truth is unsearchable by which He hardeneth whom He will, even although his merits may have preceded, but merits for the most part common to him with the man on whom He has mercy. As of two twins, of which one is taken and the other left, the end is unequal, while the deserts are common, yet in these the one is in such wise delivered by God’s great goodness, that the other is condemned by no injustice of God’s. For is there unrighteousness with God? Away with the thought- Augustine”

We always have true free will. The predestination that I am curious about is the type that says that man cannot chose anything but evil without God and no matter what some people do or beleive they are doomed. Everyone’s posts on this one have been great…

I will agree with you that we all have free will, as Augstine said we have a free will, but lack liberty in the choice that are avaible to us,we will never chose that which in"good", because we in bondage.

“it was by the evil use of free will that man destroyed both it and itself.” Augustine

This is a very hard subject to explain, I think Augustine addressed it well in: Chapter 9

http://www.ccel.org/a/augustine/enc…nchiridion.html

I will do my best here. There is no liberty with in man to choose after he as choosen sin that choice is made by his nature of being which is sinfull. He then freely chooses “freely being with out external pressure or constraint.” to remain in this state. Men do have a free will but no liberty to choose.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[ralphinal]

briand:

Yes it does, of course that has no meaning but it does lead to that. I think the thing that drives my the craziest about the Christian faith, is the utter absolute futility.

Tell me about this futility. Is it that man can doom himself but not save himself? Is it that sin traps and you cannot free yourself? What is the futility?