Predestination

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What is the Catholic Church’s viewpoint throught the Scriptures on Predestination. I always thought that God gave us free will to choose him or not. Calvinists believe that God has chosen the elect before the foundation of the world. They also quote scripture, which now I am paraphrasing and quote that Christ mentioned that a handful of believers are given to him suggesting some are chosen and some are not. Does that mean that God predestines people to hell? That sounds horrible. What does Scripture and the Catholic Church have to say about this. Didnot St. Augustine address this and HOW?
 
What is the Catholic Church’s viewpoint throught the Scriptures on Predestination. I always thought that God gave us free will to choose him or not. Calvinists believe that God has chosen the elect before the foundation of the world. They also quote scripture, which now I am paraphrasing and quote that Christ mentioned that a handful of believers are given to him suggesting some are chosen and some are not. Does that mean that God predestines people to hell? That sounds horrible. What does Scripture and the Catholic Church have to say about this. Didnot St. Augustine address this and HOW?
Here is a brief summary.

– We do have free will to say yes to God or to say no to Him. (We could not truly love Him if we didn’t have a choice; forced love is no love at all, and God craves real love.)

– God, being omniscient, knows who is going to choose to say yes to Him, and who will say no to Him. (It’s actually inaccurate in a way to talk about God foreknowing something, since to Him, all things are present; but since we are presently locked in time, it may be easier to speak of God’s foreknowledge.)

– There is no causal relationship between God’s foreknowledge of our choices and our choices. Example: Jesus knew Judas Iscariot would betray Him. But this foreknowledge did not cause Judas to betray Jesus. Judas was in no way compelled to betray Jesus on account of Jesus’ foreknowledge, and was in fact free not to betray Jesus. Otherwise, we would have to take the position that God affirmatively wills and ordains evil, and is therefore the author of evil. Clearly, He cannot be.

Hope that helps a little.
 
Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.
Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.
Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain “elect” people to heaven. We all, as God’s children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God’s grace.
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-III

ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION****Fr. William Most
ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.htm

Calvin was wrong.
 
What is the Catholic Church’s viewpoint throught the Scriptures on Predestination. I always thought that God gave us free will to choose him or not. Calvinists believe that God has chosen the elect before the foundation of the world. They also quote scripture, which now I am paraphrasing and quote that Christ mentioned that a handful of believers are given to him suggesting some are chosen and some are not. Does that mean that God predestines people to hell? That sounds horrible. What does Scripture and the Catholic Church have to say about this. Didnot St. Augustine address this and HOW?
The Church teaching:

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”.
 
Here is a brief summary.

– We do have free will to say yes to God or to say no to Him. (We could not truly love Him if we didn’t have a choice; forced love is no love at all, and God craves real love.)

– God, being omniscient, knows who is going to choose to say yes to Him, and who will say no to Him. (It’s actually inaccurate in a way to talk about God foreknowing something, since to Him, all things are present; but since we are presently locked in time, it may be easier to speak of God’s foreknowledge.)

– There is no causal relationship between God’s foreknowledge of our choices and our choices. Example: Jesus knew Judas Iscariot would betray Him. But this foreknowledge did not cause Judas to betray Jesus. Judas was in no way compelled to betray Jesus on account of Jesus’ foreknowledge, and was in fact free not to betray Jesus. Otherwise, we would have to take the position that God affirmatively wills and ordains evil, and is therefore the author of evil. Clearly, He cannot be.

Hope that helps a little.
Very nicely said. 👍
 
The Church teaching:

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”.
The Augustinian view:
These are the great works of the Lord, sought out according to all His pleasure, and so wisely sought out, that when the intelligent creation, both angelic and human, sinned, doing not His will but their own, He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil,** to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has predestined to punishment**, and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has predestined to grace. For, as far as relates to their own consciousness, these creatures did what God wished not to be done: but in view of God’s omnipotence, they could in no wise effect their purpose. For in the very fact that they acted in opposition to His will, His will concerning them was fulfilled. And hence it is that “the works of the Lord are great, sought out according to all His pleasure,” because in a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to His will does not defeat His will. For it would not be done did He not permit it (and of course His permission is not unwilling, but willing); nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done only that in His omnipotence He can turn evil into good.
(St. Augustine, Enchiridon, Ch. 100)

But however strong may be the purposes either of angels or of men, whether of good or bad, whether these purposes fall in with the will of God or run counter to it, the will of the Omnipotent is never defeated; and His will never can be evil; because even when it inflicts evil it is just, and what is just is certainly not evil. The omnipotent God, then, whether in mercy He pities whom He will, or IN JUDGMENT HARDENS WHOM HE WILL, is never unjust in what He does, never does anything except of His own free-will, and never wills anything that He does not perform.
(St. Augusutine, Enchiridon, Ch. 102)
 
To all participants:

Thank you all for your imput to the question and dilemma on Predestination. Your viewpoints are most helpful and I agreed with your insight on this difficult subject.

Greg Bailey
 
Here is a brief summary.

– We do have free will to say yes to God or to say no to Him. (We could not truly love Him if we didn’t have a choice; forced love is no love at all, and God craves real love.)

– God, being omniscient, knows who is going to choose to say yes to Him, and who will say no to Him. (It’s actually inaccurate in a way to talk about God foreknowing something, since to Him, all things are present; but since we are presently locked in time, it may be easier to speak of God’s foreknowledge.)

– There is no causal relationship between God’s foreknowledge of our choices and our choices. Example: Jesus knew Judas Iscariot would betray Him. But this foreknowledge did not cause Judas to betray Jesus. Judas was in no way compelled to betray Jesus on account of Jesus’ foreknowledge, and was in fact free not to betray Jesus. Otherwise, we would have to take the position that God affirmatively wills and ordains evil, and is therefore the author of evil. Clearly, He cannot be.

Hope that helps a little.
Thanks for this!
So, to sum it up in a couple words: God knows who is to go to Heaven or Hell, but He does not force us to. Correct-ish?
 
Personally, I find St. Augustine’s and St. Thomas Aquinas’ soteriology in relation to predestination downright disturbing. I understand that they both avoided the excesses of Calvinism in rejecting positive reprobation, or in other words the belief that God decides to damn the “non-elect” to hell from all eternity.

Nonetheless, this does not soothe my concerns. I am very firmly “allied” with Eastern Orthodoxy/Eastern Catholicism, Molinism and Protestant Arminianism in this matter. Thankfully, the Catechism and contemporary Catholicism in general seems to uphold Molinism, however the Thomist/Augustinian conception is still licit.

My understanding is neatly summed up by the Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem (1672):
We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He hath chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He hath rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause…since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other
I think this is the only position that accords with right reason, since to me, the Thomistic conception seems to make God appear like a parent who loves one child more than another, not because of what that child does but simply out of a non-merited “preference”.

How can God possibly predestine rational creatures to beatitude without any reference to their eternally foreseen “merits” or “works”? This preferential “election”, not based on works but on God’s will alone, is anathema to me - since it makes God like a parent who simply loves one child over another, no matter what the lesser loved child might do to try and “win” favour.

It is a conception of God that I reject. Yes, I know that I have the liberty to reject the Thomistic and Augustinian view in favour of Molinism however I would rather not have the choice at all, since the former are so repugnant to my sensibilities that it pains me to know the church tolerates them at all.

Can any Thomists help heal my pained conscience over this matter?
 
Molinism is untenable philosophically. God gives EVERYONE sufficient grace to be saved, both Aquinas and Augustine agree. For them, it is most beautiful to let them choose the good of salvation without the extra push of efficacious grace. To others, their individual story is different. Different people, different plan, all done most beautifully. Not everyone saved, which leads to the question of why God created people who He knew would go to hell. But to give them the chance of salvation was most beautiful of all.
 
I would see it this way:

God in His justice has set punishement for the bad and reward for the good. That’s the basics. That is what is predetermined. The** consequences, not the sequence of causality**.
No reference to the future merits doesn’t show an absence of merits that will be acquired. But who needs more grace recieves more grace by faith and works too. Penance and so on (always because of Christ).

The problem is always time vs. eternity :D. Preference in God is on Faith and choices of men (before during after in a unique present), but not just because some men are better “from the beginning”.
You have to remember the passage when Jesus says that He has chosen us. well, do we say yes, or no?
In time, in History, when God in the flesh was here, he prefered the sinners, who would be open to Faith! and I say Alleluia. The rest we cannot really discuss fully.
 
Molinism is untenable philosophically. God gives EVERYONE sufficient grace to be saved, both Aquinas and Augustine agree. For them, it is most beautiful to let them choose the good of salvation without the extra push of efficacious grace.
From my understanding Thomism is essentially more deterministic than Molinism.
 
While this is one of the few areas that I would disagree with St. Thomas on, I do think that the wording of the text as quoted from the Orthodox synod could be a problem. I don’t think we would want to use the term “cause”. They are saying that God’s predestination is “caused” by something we do. I might say “contingent”, but “caused” strikes me as a problem. God’s Will is identical with His Essence after all.

We can say that God predestines all those to glory who do not persistently resist His Grace, and adopt St. Francis de Sales position on the prevision of merit. (This was also St. Albert the Great’s position–too bad he didn’t do a better job convincing St. Thomas when we was giving him instruction.)
 
Molinism is untenable philosophically. God gives EVERYONE sufficient grace to be saved, both Aquinas and Augustine agree. For them, it is most beautiful to let them choose the good of salvation without the extra push of efficacious grace. To others, their individual story is different. Different people, different plan, all done most beautifully. Not everyone saved, which leads to the question of why God created people who He knew would go to hell. But to give them the chance of salvation was most beautiful of all.
Not so. Someone of greater insight into this admittedly opaque and mind-numbing area of theology is entitled to correct me, but as far as I am aware according to St. Thomas and St. Augustine one actually will not be saved without so-called “efficacious grace”. In other words, those who receive merely sufficient grace, will never attain to salvation but always fail without that “extra push”.

In other words then, according to Domingo Banez’s interpretation of Aquinas, God does not predestine anyone positively to hell but denies the efficacious grace necessary for salvation to all but an “elect” group arbitrarily chosen not according to foreseen merits, thereby knowing that the others will never be able reach heaven. How is this not “Calvinism-Lite”? I know that I am not allowed to label Thomism as semi-Calvinism, just as Thomists are not allowed to label Molinism as semipelagianism, however I fail in all honesty to see how it isn’t and I apologize for saying so.

The result is therefore the same as Calvin’s reprehensible doctrine of double predestination, even if the Thomist model stays within the bounds of orthodoxy, since without efficacious grace no one will attain to salvation.

The Thomist model therefore creates what is to me a purposeless universe: a group of elect are eternally predestined to heaven and will receive the efficacious grace to make this a reality, while the rest are doomed without it.

If I am wrong please correct me but as far as I see it, the Thomist universe is one run by a tyrannical Deity who arbitrarily chooses to grant the grace needed for absolutely attaining salvation only to a select group, while knowing that without this special grace all the rest are doomed.

For me, this destroys the very gift of freewill that makes life, cooperating with saving grace and the entire meaning of Jesus’ sacrifice meaningful.

The frustrating thing is that scholars are agreed that prior to Augustine, NO CHURCH FATHER SUBSCRIBED TO THIS MODEL OF PREDESTINATION. And in the East where Augustine’s sanctity was accepted but not his works or theology, it never took ground either.

Ludwig Ott admits this openly:
While the pre-Augustinian tradition is in favour of the Molinistic explanation, St. Augustine, at least in his later writings, is more in favour of the Thomistic explanation. The Thomist view emphasizes God’s universal causality while the other view stresses the universality of the Divine salvific will, man’s freedom and his cooperation in his salvation.
(Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford, IL: TAN Books, 1974 {orig. 1952}, 242-245)
This is reinforced by Calvin himself, who had read the Greek Fathers and knew that they did not teach the same as Augustine. He wrote:

Calvin’s low opinion of the Greek fathers comes across loud and clear in the following sentence:
Further, even though the Greeks above the rest—and Chrysostom especially among them—extol the ability of the human will, yet all the ancients, save Augustine, so differ, waver, or speak confusedly on this subject, that almost nothing certain can be derived from their writings.
In other words, Calvin is stating that while he was fully aware that the early fathers (“all the ancients”) did not affirm his understanding of predestination, Augustine is the sole exception and so nothing the others said mattered a jot. :o

How can I not feel bitterness towards St. Augustine, despite his greatness and indisputable sanctity, for this miserable conception of salvation?

He started out as what modern scholars would call, in hindsight, a ‘Molinist’ and then moved to an extreme predestinarian position so as to crush the opposing extreme heresy of Pelagianism.

It is obvious to anyone who genuinely studies the earliest fathers that Augustine’s conception of predestination did not as yet exist. Indeed St. Vincent of Lerins thought Augustine’s model of predestination a “dangerous novelty”…yet St. Thomas embraced it???

This leads me to the conclusion that the Christian East, both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic in Communion with Rome, has preserved the purest and most original approach to predestination whereas the West has followed the thoughts of one man - and one whom we know was highly fallible in other areas of his thought too.

I just cannot accept the Thomist/Augustinian conception of predestination.
 
For what it’s worth, here is an article with further Church references to the subject. 😉
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?
Go to the subhead on Schools of Thought to read how theologian Fr. Most understood Thomism and Molinism.
I’ve had a quick skim and it appears that Fr. Most is sympathetic to Thomism and believes in negative reprobation, no, albeit in a more attractive form?

I support with St. Ambrose when he taught: “He did not predestine before He foreknew, but for those whose merits He foresaw, He predestined the reward” (De fide, V, vi, 83).

The belief in predestination without foreseeing merits is something that Ambrose clearly did not believe, nor any father pre-Augustine.

St. Ambrose was a pre-Augustinian Latin father, indeed Augustine imbibed much from hearing the sermons of Ambrose but much like a previous poster mentioned with Albertus Magnus and Aquinas, he seems to have overlooked his teaching on predestination, to my mighty regret.

I don’t wish to be too hard on St. Augustine or Aquinas, I mean they have given us so much (who could not be moved by the Confessions), however I honestly struggle with this part of their theology.
 
Let us consider two of the earliest of Fathers, St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus:
“…But I have already shown that it is not by the fault of God that** those angels and men do become wicked who are foreseen as going to be unjust**, but [rather that] **by his own fault each one is such as he will appear **[then]…But if the word of God predicts at all that some, both angels and men, are going to be punished, it predicts these things because He foreknows that they are going to be unchangeably wicked, but not because God made them such…”
- St. Justin Martyr, Dialogus 140.4., PG 6.797
Would anyone deny that this teaches conditional predestination, with foreknowledge of merits?

What is “wrong” with this rational, just, thoroughly acceptance doctrine of the Early pre-Augustine Fathers, that St. Thomas and others saw fit, unlike the Easterners, to adopt Augustine’s innovation? How does Augustine’s theory improve upon the unanimous consensus of the early church both east and West?

The Molinists defended and embellished for a new era this earlier theory, and God Bless them for it.

Now St. Irenaeus:
“…If therefore even now God since He foreknows all things, has handed over to their infidelity as many as He knows will not believe, and has turned His face away from such ones, leaving them in the darkness which they chose for themselves: How is it strange if then He handed over to their own infidelity Pharaoh, who never would believe, and those who were with him?”
***- St. Irenaeus, Adversus haereses 4.29.2. PG 7.1064. ***
Again, conditional predestination with foreknowledge of merits!!! 🤷

I am sorry but to me, in all humility, I think that something went badly wrong with St. Augustine’s doctrine of predestination in his debates against the Pelagian heretics, something that fortuitously was never endorsed by the East.

I cannot understand how Thomists can ignore these early Fathers and indeed the entirety of Eastern theology. Are we not a universal church? Was it not the principle of St. Vincent that, “Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all”???
 
Let us consider two of the earliest of Fathers, St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus:

Would anyone deny that this teaches conditional predestination, with foreknowledge of merits?

What is “wrong” with this rational, just, thoroughly acceptance doctrine of the Early pre-Augustine Fathers, that St. Thomas and others saw fit, unlike the Easterners, to adopt Augustine’s innovation? How does Augustine’s theory improve upon the unanimous consensus of the early church both east and West?

The Molinists defended and embellished for a new era this earlier theory, and God Bless them for it.

Now St. Irenaeus:

Again, conditional predestination with foreknowledge of merits!!! 🤷

I am sorry but to me, in all humility, I think that something went badly wrong with St. Augustine’s doctrine of predestination in his debates against the Pelagian heretics, something that fortuitously was never endorsed by the East.

I cannot understand how Thomists can ignore these early Fathers and indeed the entirety of Eastern theology. Are we not a universal church? Was it not the principle of St. Vincent that, “Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all”???
I would be concerned to, but remember that seeing something is not causing it. I am struggling on another thread about people created who then went to hell, with God knowing this from all Eternity. And so, God should not create such people…

Yes, God knows, but knows man’s choices. So we have to live our lives and do the right choices. God does not create a man with a hell-chip to direct his choices, but the man freely said no to God in History. Therefore, in Eternity, he is in hell; because in the past, which is the same as present and future to God, the person said no.
 
I would be concerned to, but remember that seeing something is not causing it. I am struggling on another thread about people created who then went to hell, with God knowing this from all Eternity. And so, God should not create such people…

Yes, God knows, but knows man’s choices. So we have to live our lives and do the right choices. God does not create a man with a hell-chip to direct his choices, but the man freely said no to God in History. Therefore, in Eternity, he is in hell; because in the past, which is the same as present and future to God, the person said no.
What you say is true and in accordance both with the Early Fathers and the Molinist Jesuits, however Augustine and Aquinas thought differently. This is the root of my concern, because this school has naturally been prominent historically in the West due to the pre-eminence of Augustine and the Thomist Revival of the 19th century.

Molina himself and the Protestant Arminian John Weslet (Founder of Methodism) both express my concerns over this model of predestination.

Molina (for Catholicism) said:
What grievance will God have on Judgment Day against the wicked, since they were unable not to sin as long as God did not efficaciously incline and determine them to the good, but rather solely by His own free will decided from eternity not so to determine them? Most assuredly, if this position is accepted . . . God’s justice with respect to the wicked vanishes, and a manifest cruelty and wickedness is discerned in God
And John Wesley (for Protestantism):
Such blasphemy this, as one would think might make the ears of a Christian to tingle! But there is yet more behind; for just as it honours the Son, so doth this doctrine honour the Father. It destroys all his attributes at once: It overturns both his justice, mercy, and truth; yea, it represents the most holy God as worse than the devil, as both more false, more cruel, and more unjust. More false; because the devil, liar as he is, hath never said, “He willeth all men to be saved:” More unjust; because the devil cannot, if he would, be guilty of such injustice as you ascribe to God, when you say that God condemned millions of souls to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for continuing in sin, which, for want of that grace he will not give them, they cannot avoid: And more cruel; because that unhappy spirit “seeketh rest and findeth none;” so that his own restless misery is a kind of temptation to him to tempt others. But God resteth in his high and holy place; so that to suppose him, of his own mere motion, of his pure will and pleasure, happy as he is, to doom his creatures, whether they will or no, to endless misery, is to impute such cruelty to him as we cannot impute even to the great enemy of God and man. It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!
  1. This is the blasphemy clearly contained in the horrible decree+ of [Calvinist] predestination! And here I fix my foot. On this I join issue with every assertor of it. You represent God as worse than the devil; more false, more cruel, more unjust. But you say you will prove it by scripture. Hold! What will you prove by Scripture that God is worse than the devil I cannot be. Whatever that Scripture proves, it never an prove this; whatever its true meaning be. This cannot be its true meaning. Do you ask, “What is its true meaning then” If I say, " I know not," you have gained nothing; for there are many scriptures the true sense whereof neither you nor I shall know till death is swallowed up in victory. But this I know, better it were to say it had no sense, than to say it had such a sense as this. It cannot mean, whatever it mean besides, that the God of truth is a liar. Let it mean what it will it cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust. No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works; that is, whatever it prove beside, no scripture can prove predestination.
  1. This is the blasphemy for which (however I love the persons who assert it) I abhor the doctrine of predestination
As Molina disputed with the milder Thomists within the Catholic Church, Wesley had the unenviable task of having to reason with Calvinists within the Church of England.
 
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