Predestination

  • Thread starter Thread starter mcweb
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mcweb

Guest
Predestination and free will seem to conflict with each other. Can anyone help clarify these two topics and how I, a human with a finite logical mind can grasp these ideas? Are there prior posts that can help? I am a convert of 8 years and still learning.Reading and talking with others has not presented the answers to date.
 
That’s a tough one.
C.S. Lewis has some good insight, as I recall, try Mere Christianity. It may be another of his books though.
The question seems to be, if God knows from eternity what we are going to do, how can we be said to have free will?
I picture God outside of time, like a man looking down at a picture he’s drawn. We are dots moving along the timeline of the picture, aware of only a moment at a time.
We make choices as we come to forks in the road, and we exercise our free will doing so. God sees what we choose, and can change the picture around, in front, and even behind us as He chooses, sometimes in answer to our prayers. He’s not forcing us to do anything, He’s just observing us. He also intervenes at times, as in miracles or answers to prayer.
So He knows the end from the beginning, but we still exercise free will.
We are not Calvinists, to believe in predestination to the extent they did. God does everything He can to get us all to heaven. He seems to think the game worth the candle, who am I to argue with Him?
 
We all have free will. We decide in our actions and choices where we will spend Eternity.

God exists outside of time and space, so, although we have free will He knows in less than the blinking on an eye what our final choice will be, given the infinite possibilities.

Many who ponder on this are concerned about why He would create us at all when He knows who will be saved and who will be damned.God is not a puppet master and we are not slaves.

We are created to know, love and serve God in this life and to be happy with Him forever in the next. God honours the choice of those who choose to reject this. :twocents:
 
I am a convert of 8 years also, from Calvinism, so predestination has always been a major focus of my beliefs. It was actually predestination that was my last theological “hurdle” to overcome before fully embracing the Catholic faith. This is a mystery, like the Incarnation and the Trinity. We can grasp them to some degree, but then when we really ponder them in depth, they are really beyond our grasp in terms of fully comprehending them (an infinite God in a finite human body, fully human and fully divine? three distinct Persons in one God?)

In Calvinism, predestination is taught to the exclusion of free will. This always bothered me, in the back of my mind, because in reality it makes God unjust. He commands while witholding the ability to obey the command. I never could completely reconcile that, but I didn’t know what else to believe because I knew predestination was taught in the Bible. When I was studying Catholicism, I had a hard time understanding how predestination and free will could co-exist because it was ingrained in me from Reformed theology that they can’t. But after reading some of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine, I saw how they could be. Both are taught in Scripture, so we have to accept both co-exist, even if we may not fully understand how (Sirach 15:1-20 is very explicit on free will).

St. Augustine’s definition of predestination is, “the foreknowledge and preparedness on God’s part to bestow the favors by which all those are saved who are to be saved. God already knew, when He predestined, what He must do to bring His elect infallibly to eternal life.”

One thing that helped me understand this the difference between sufficient and efficacious grace. Efficacious grace is intrinsically efficacious in itself (Ezekiel 36:26; Phil 2:13; John 10:27; Prov 21:1, Esther 13:9; 14:13; Eccli. 33:13; 33:24-37), the other is sufficient because it provides the ability to do good, but it can be refused. (Prov 1:24, Is. 65:2; Matt 23:37; Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 6:1; 1 Tim. 2:4) This explains how God can predestine to heaven without predestining anyone to hell, and make salvation possible for all without making it automatic for all.

We motivate people all the time to do certain things without actually forcing them against their will, with our finite abilities and wisdom. An infinitely wise and all-powerful God uses His grace to motivate us towards Him without forcing our wills. I don’t know if this fully answers your question, but since we know revelation teaches both predestination and free will, they must both be true, even if we may not understand how they can be.
 
I am from the Baptist Church.
Very often during the Service in the sermon you can hear:
-’‘How happy we are that we are separated from this world , and don’t belong to this world.’’
-’‘How happy we are that we are Chosen from this world.’’
You hear it constantly.
These statements take your thoughts control and hypnotize you.

We are so sure, how to split the people
by; chosen and unchosen, saved and unsaved,born again and not born again,saints and sinners.
I was working with a youth, and I can tell from the experience.
What to say to the people who are strongly damaged by sin ?
Who day and night are struggling with sin ?
Who are falling in sin many times and are injured by despair or inferiority complex ?

Sometimes our church with its disciplinary acts and excommunications reminds me the training of the puppies bulldogs for the competition.
If the puppy is weak , he has to be drowned.
Because the weak has no chance to survive and exist among the strong chosen ones.
I know the people who has got a traumas , and left the church just because of the Idea of Predestination.
When I talk with one of them , He tald me that He doesn’t want any religious experience in his life.

In the Bible in my opinion there are the verses which you can read and understand in both sides.
Its like to give one answer , on the question, -What is pictured on the coin head or tail.
I am in full agreement with a Catholic Doctrine on this issue.
Though I am in the process of my convertion to the Byzantine Catholic Church.
 
Predestination is a confusing topic. The Bible itself acknowledges that some of it’s teachings are difficult to understand. The biblical presentation of predestination and free will is a perfect example of why we have the need for a Church with doctrinal and teaching authority. When each individual decides on their own what the Bible means to them, we have chaos, and worse than that, we have disunity. Disunity is in direct opposition to the prayers of both Christ (John 17:11) and Paul (1 Cor 1:10). Acts 8 is a great example of how we should approach the teachings of Christianity, especially the more difficult ones:
26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” 30 ***Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” ***So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”[e]
34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
We must turn to the authority of the Church, whom, guided by the Holy Spirit, is our “Philip” today. 1 Tim 3:15 says, the Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth”. The Catechism contains the doctrine of today’s living Church. Here are some excerpts from the Catechism that address the topics of predestination and free will:
1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul, the human person is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake.” From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.
1704 The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection “in seeking and loving what is true and good.”

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.
1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28
  1. When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42
    1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.
    1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
    Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45
    II. GRACE
    1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
 
Romans 9 is very clear about this…

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth😉
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Christians are chosen by God…God ordains both the end and the means of our salvation…Acts 27 shows this issue very clearly…Paul first says that God decreed that all would be saved on the ship…BUT…then when the sailors try to leave the ship…Paul tells them that if they leave the ship, they will not be saved. Man’s responsibility and God’s Sovereign decree working together.

Ac 27:22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship.
23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

Ac 27:30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship,
31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

And even the works of God’s children were prepared before the foundation of the world…

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which **God hath before ordained **that we should walk in them.

Other scripture references…

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained (appointed) to eternal life believed.

Ac 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Ac 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
Hello Mcweb,

Does it help you to first understand that God exists outside of physcial time which He created? God is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time. Our Spiritual God can look at physical time from infinite past to infinite future as a human looks at a three inch peice of yarn.

God allows man freedom from the control of His will in order that man can freely choose to love Him or not to love Him. God looks at the whole of physical time and can see all the choices that free willed man makes. God then reveals, through biblical prophecy, what some of the choices free willed man has made in what we see as the future.

To term prophecy from God’s, Omni-Presence to the whole of physical time human free willed choices, prospective, as “Predestination” is a failure to understand that our spiritual God exists outside of physical time.

Does this make sence to you?
 
One way in which we are all predestined involves God’s decision as to what culture and family we will be born in. It is God who creates the soul and decides which body He will place it in. For me, He chose two faithful Catholic parents - God “predestined” that. Which in turn meant I would be baptized (become one of the elected, chosen). The circumstances/culture were a small Catholic town with only a Catholic school - which meant 12 years of Catholic education; etc. etc. etc. So many things I have to thank God for “predestining” for me. Of course, I had to freely choose to accept and cooperate with all the graces.

I realize this doesn’t cover the whole range of predestination, (eg. predestination of Mary, her sinlessness at conception and remaining that way thruout her life), but it covers a lot of what applies for the individual in ordinary circumstances.

Nita
 
Nita said:
One way in which we are all predestined involves God’s decision as to what culture and family we will be born in. It is God who creates the soul and decides which body He will place it in. For me, He chose two faithful Catholic parents - God “predestined” that. Which in turn meant I would be baptized (become one of the elected, chosen). The circumstances/culture were a small Catholic town with only a Catholic school - which meant 12 years of Catholic education; etc. etc. etc. So many things I have to thank God for “predestining” for me. Of course, I had to freely choose to accept and cooperate with all the graces.

I realize this doesn’t cover the whole range of predestination, (eg. predestination of Mary, her sinlessness at conception and remaining that way thruout her life), but it covers a lot of what applies for the individual in ordinary circumstances.

Nita
Click to expand...
If you are considered elect or chosen or even, as it is said - born again at Baptism…why do many Catholics fall away from the faith altogether, commit heinous sin, and become like the wicked. If they were born again at Baptism, this would all be true for EVERY Catholic…

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 3:14 KJV 14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Galatians 5:24 KJV 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1 John 2:3 KJV 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

I guess Catholics are not born again at Baptism and the Catholic teaching about this “rebirth” is wrong.
 
Linkowski said:
If you are considered elect or chosen or even, as it is said - born again at Baptism…why do many Catholics fall away from the faith altogether, commit heinous sin, and become like the wicked. If they were born again at Baptism, this would all be true for EVERY Catholic…

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 3:14 KJV 14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Galatians 5:24 KJV 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1 John 2:3 KJV 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

I guess they are not born again at Baptism then and the Catholic teaching abotu this rebirth is wrong.
Click to expand...
Linkowski, be very careful here. Are you claiming that you, or that other born-again Protestants, never sin? These passages don’t say that those who are Christ’s never commit great sins, or that they never fall away, but that they never sin - at all. If you interpret them strictly literalistically, that is the standard you are holding yourself to.
 
Lazerlike42 said:
Linkowski, be very careful here. Are you claiming that you, or that other born-again Protestants, never sin? These passages don’t say that those who are Christ’s never commit great sins, or that they never fall away, but that they never sin - at all. If you interpret them strictly literalistically, that is the standard you are holding yourself to.
Click to expand...
You cannot claim this scripture to be meaning just what you are saying. This is referring to habitual practicing of sin with delight and no guilt. It would be a contradiction in scripture.

1 John 2:1 KJV 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:8-9 KJV 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

When Jesus said, sin no more…was that a fair command to us who have these sinful natures??

So, you interpretation of this is not correct. Plus, you really did not answer the problem.
 
Linkowski said:
If you are considered elect or chosen or even, as it is said - born again at Baptism…why do many Catholics fall away from the faith altogether, commit heinous sin, and become like the wicked. If they were born again at Baptism, this would all be true for EVERY Catholic…
Click to expand...
The wicked does as the wicked thinks. Who is the wicked? 😉
 
Nobody can answer the problem - but call the proposer of the problem wicked. That is really interesting.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding.
 
Linkowski said:
Nobody can answer the problem - but call the proposer of the problem wicked. That is really interesting.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding.
Click to expand...
I don’t understand what you are saying at all. No sweat. 😃
 
If you are considered elect or chosen or even, as it is said - born again at Baptism…why do many Catholics fall away from the faith altogether, commit heinous sin, and become like the wicked. If they were born again at Baptism, this would all be true for EVERY Catholic…

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 3:14 KJV 14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Galatians 5:24 KJV 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1 John 2:3 KJV 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

I guess Catholics are not born again at Baptism and the Catholic teaching about this “rebirth” is wrong.
 
Linkowski,

Thank you for adding your (name removed by moderator)ut here on this forum. It is only through discussion and brotherly exchange that we, as Christians, can move toward the unity among believers that God desires.

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

I have to say that I do not understand the point you are trying to make regarding Catholicism and it’s views on predestination, free will, rebirth, and sin. I know that what you have to say is heartfelt and important and I want to understand. Can you clarify?
 
Linkowski said:
You cannot claim this scripture to be meaning just what you are saying. This is referring to habitual practicing of sin with delight and no guilt. It would be a contradiction in scripture.

1 John 2:1 KJV 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:8-9 KJV 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

When Jesus said, sin no more…was that a fair command to us who have these sinful natures??

So, you interpretation of this is not correct. Plus, you really did not answer the problem.
Click to expand...
My interpretation of this is the same as yours, so I don’t think we have that problem! 🙂 Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that point.

As Catholics, we understand that when we are justified, we are made children of God - literally born of God. We become God’s sons. When we reject that Sonship, we become sons of Adam. All of these passages are saying that those who are living a life of sin are not in that state of beng born of God - being Sons of God. They aren’t saying that once a person has been born of God, he can never go back. The Greek, if I recall correctly, makes this much more clear.

The idea that a person can become born again - however you believe that occurs - and then can never lose their new state is unBiblical. The book of Hebrews makes it very clear that it is possible for this to happen, particularly the beginning of chapter 6.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top