Predestination

[Nita]

If you are considered elect or chosen or even, as it is said - born again at Baptism…why do many Catholics fall away from the faith altogether, commit heinous sin, and become like the wicked.

.

Same reason many Protestants do. We all have free will and some freely choose to reject God’s will and sin seriously. ( My post was not meant to apply to Catholics only; I used myself as the example and I happen to be Catholic.)

I used the terms “elected” and “chosen” for those born to Christian parents, in particular where there would be infant baptism. By that I meant that they we were “chosen” by God (thru the circumstances of our birth) to become members of the Body of Christ (Church), receive the supernatural life of grace, and be initiated into the New Covenant - as a result of our baptism.

I in no way meant to imply that being baptized - born again of water and the Spirit - insures that one will be faithful throughout life and attain heaven for all eternity. That “election” is dependent on how we live.

Nita

 

[Linkowski]

“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (II Thessalonians 2:13-14).

Note the order established by God in His great plan of salvation. God had chosen these Thessalonian believers to salvation even before they were born, for it was from the beginning. Then He called them, and they heard the gospel, believed the truth, and were sanctified (that is, “set apart”) by the Holy Spirit, eventually destined to be glorified in Christ.

To accomplish this, however, the Spirit used human messengers. He first, in a vision, directed Paul to go to Greece to preach the gospel (Acts 16:9), where he eventually reached Thessalonica and taught the truth to those he found in the synagogue. However, of the many who were “called” as Paul preached and taught, only “some of them believed” (17:4). Most of his listeners had not been “chosen,” so they resisted the “call” and refused to believe. As Jesus said: “Many be called, but few |are| chosen” (Matthew 20:16).

Such a truth may be difficult to understand with our finite minds, but (like Paul) “we are bound to give thanks” that we who believe today, like the Thessalonian believers then, have been both “chosen . . . in Him before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4), and also “called . . . out of darkness into His marvelous light” (I Peter 2:9).

This same mysterious but glorious truth is found throughout Scripture. “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. . . . What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?” (Romans 8:28,31).

 

[Linkowski]

Same reason many Protestants do. We all have free will and some freely choose to reject God’s will and sin seriously. ( My post was not meant to apply to Catholics only; I used myself as the example and I happen to be Catholic.)

I used the terms “elected” and “chosen” for those born to Christian parents, in particular where there would be infant baptism. By that I meant that they we were “chosen” by God (thru the circumstances of our birth) to become members of the Body of Christ (Church), receive the supernatural life of grace, and be initiated into the New Covenant - as a result of our baptism.

I in no way meant to imply that being baptized - born again of water and the Spirit - insures that one will be faithful throughout life and attain heaven for all eternity. That “election” is dependent on how we live.

Nita

Yes, but in accordance with God’s Word…those who are born again will persevere in faith, hate sin, love the brethren, etc.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

So, then how can they all be born of God as the Catholic Church claims?

 

[jonk]

I highly recommend Catholics read the following articles in order, but especially St. Thomas on Actual Grace. I read them yesterday, and for the first time have I been able to reconcile being saved by grace alone without merit on our part with free will, God’s universal salvific will and the fact that not all will be saved. They propose an orthodox and Scriptural approach distinct from the Thomist view but based (apparently more closely) on St. Thomas’s actual position.

**
Predestination: Reasons For Centuries-Old Impasse
St. Thomas on Actual Grace
Predestination
**

 

[Nita]

I highly recommend Catholics read the following articles in order, but especially St. Thomas on Actual Grace. I read them yesterday, and for the first time have I been able to reconcile being saved by grace alone without merit on our part with free will, God’s universal salvific will and the fact that not all will be saved. They propose an orthodox and Scriptural approach distinct from the Thomist view but based (apparently more closely) on St. Thomas’s actual position.

**
Predestination: Reasons For Centuries-Old Impasse**
St. Thomas on Actual Grace
Predestination

Thanks for the links jonk. Fr. Most has a very clear and understandable way of presenting things.

Nita

 

[Texan_in_DC]

If you are considered elect or chosen or even, as it is said - born again at Baptism…why do many Catholics fall away from the faith altogether, commit heinous sin, and become like the wicked. If they were born again at Baptism, this would all be true for EVERY Catholic…

**at Baptism we recieve the Holy Spirt, we are cleansed of our original sin (washed away, not covered up) we are innocent again. As long as we say yes to God, His comandment, His Church, we keep that innocense, which only comes from God and which was restored by Christ.

Not just Catholics but all Christians and people even when we recieve the Spirit or the Seed, we do not lose free will, if we are focussed on Christ, God and His Church in all things we will remain sinless, we can say yes or no to God every day and we do.

Now Catholics have one baptism, even infant baptism, but we also have the sacrament of confirmation, where we hope we have a true conversion of heart and a public statement of faith of our beliefs, this confirmation, says yes to our baptism, and through free will we can say yes or no on any given day. As long as we are working with the spirit and say yes we are protected, but the spirit does not get in the way of our free will.

Therefore one can lose salvation or the grace of God, we Catholics believe that this loss of grace is the result from a direct no to God, which is a mortal sin, we know its wrong and we did it anyway. But through God’s love, Jesus inacted the sacrament of pennance so that even the sinner can restore once again which we lost. When we say no to God, His law, His Church, we have offended all three, so we confess to the church, confess the law which was broken and ask for forgiveness from God through Jesus Christ. Because Jesus Christ is no longer with us in person, he gave this authority to his preisthood just as his Father gave to him, to forgive and retain sin. The priest does not forgive the sin but through His grace and love Jesus uses that priest as a tool, just like God used Jesus as a tool. Again Jesus passes the torch along.

****Bottom line we are sinners in constant need of salvation, **this is not something that was won on the cross that day for all sinners, which covers up all sin, his passion is there for our redemtion, the sacraments are in place for the constant need to restore which we continue to loose, its not once saved always saved, we must repent and ask for forgiveness.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}

** 3:4 Lawlessness: a reference to the activity of the anti christ, so it is expressed as hostility toward God and a rejection of Christ. The author goes on to contrast the states of sin and righteousness. Christians do not escape sin but realize that when they sin they cease to have fellowship with God. Virtue and sin distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil.

3:9 A habitual sinner is a child of the devil, while a child of God, who by definition is in fellowship with God, cannot sin. Seed: Christ or the spirit who shares the nature of God with the Christian. ** The New American Bible footnotes

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 3:14 KJV 14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Galatians 5:24 KJV 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1 John 2:3 KJV 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

I guess Catholics are not born again at Baptism and the Catholic teaching about this “rebirth” is wrong.

Born again at baptism yes in regard of recieving the Spirit from above, but at the same time we do not lose our free will this always remains and so does God’s mercy when we come back from our fall.

What about non catholics when yall are born again, what happens when yall fall, how do you restore this, surely you admit that you are sinner in need of salvation?

 

[lumendelumine]

Linkowski,
I think your problem partly arises from the fact that you Baptists use the expression “born again” differently from Catholics (and the Bible, for example Acts).

For Baptists, being “born again” is about a spiritual decision for Jesus, which is then considered to be definite (Once saved always saved). Baptism does not play any part in being “born again”, it is merely an external ritual.

Catholics, following the practice of the earliest Christians (see Acts and the letters of the Apostles throughout) say that we are born again in Baptism, “through water and the Spirit”. We believe that Baptism isn’t merely an external ritual, but it’s the main thing. It actually washes us of our sins - all sins, including Original Sin - and makes us a child of God in Christ. And the reason why we baptize children is because we believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

That’s the sacramental approach (gestures and rites effecting what they point to - e. g. the cleansing of sin in Baptism and Confession, for example). Because Baptists don’t know about Sacraments, it’s probably a difficult idea to grasp, that’s why there are misunderstandings.

But being “born again of the water and the Spirit” does not say that we have now lost our Free Will and are unable to turn away from God. No, we are at all times fully able to turn away from God, in which case we lose the graces and merits we have accumulated (cf. Ezekiel 33). But if we constantly turn to Him and are open to His Grace, and let us be transformed by Him, then we will persevere until the end. And of course, even if we have turned away from Him, we can always repent, turn to Him again and be reconciled with Him in Confession.

So Catholicism isn’t about one-time securities. We can never lean back and say “ok, so now I’ll be saved for sure!”. No, we cannot turn away from God for a minute, we have to cooperate constantly with His grace, otherwise we fall away from Him, through our sins.

Baptists would say that “born again Christians” who fell away weren’t “born again” in the first place - in order to justify that OSAS does not seem to work out in all cases. A Catholic would be more just to the person (I’d say) by saying that this Christian had had a true conversion and a true rebirth (whether spritual or an actual one in Baptism), but that he or she did not have the gift of perseverance as he/she did not keep his/her eyes fixed on God and fell away from Him again.

I’m an adult convert myself who discovered Christ and was baptized at age 25. I would thus consider myself a “born again Catholic” (both in the actual Catholic and in the Baptist sense). But I also know that despite my love for God and my eagerness to follow Him, I always have the possibility to fall away from Him - that’s why I also pray for the gift of perseverance sometimes.

Maybe that made it a bit clearer.