Predestination

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Bishopite:
God can actively cause something to happen in His permissive will, but He can actively choose evil. to happen to anyone, that would go against God’s essential nature which is love. His atributes of justice, holiness all flow out of His essential nature which is love.
I think you meant **He can’t actively choose evil.****Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.**No equivocation exists in God with respect to His actively choosing evil to happen to anyone.**Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for His own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.**It’s very clear who made the wicked for the day of evil.**Acts 4:27-28

27 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.**That too is clear; those gathered to condemn and crucify Christ did so by the hand and purpose of God—like it, or not.

Your error is two-fold, and typical, in that (1) you attempt to parallel the knowledge of God with human knowledge; God’s statement to Israel with respect to that error is ***“you thought I was just like you,” *** which, of course, God is not just like you; but, as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are God’s ways higher than your ways, and His thoughts higher than your thoughts. (2) You focus on, and elevate one attribute of God, namely, love, to the diminishment of God’s other attributes; God is all of His attributes equally; He is not more loving than He is wrathful; He is not merciful than He is just, and so on; He is all of Himself in His fullness at all times; to say that God’s essential nature is love, distorts God, and causes you to worship a lopsided God, to the exclusion of His whole being.

The lopsided God at the hub of your theology causes the wheel of your theology to be
out of “true.”
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Bishopite:
And evil is not a “thing” it is the act of disobeying God.
I would disagree with that; how could ”not a thing” have entered into the world if it is
not a thing (Rom 5:12); how could ”not a thing” be present in Paul, if it is not a thing
(Rom 7:21, 23)?

How does “not a thing,” “do anything?”
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Bishopite:
God foresaw man’s fall but that doesn’t mean He actively in His active will made man fall nor that He predestined mans fall either. God’s permissive will allows mans true freedom to choose good or evil.

Suppose God saw two cars heading down the road going opposite ways toward each other. Both are on a course poised to slam into each other and both are already know that they aren’t supposed to drive down this road.

God foresaw what is going to happen He foresees their eventual crash into each other; He also sees that they don’t die, they are just injured for the rest of their lives.

God foresaw their eventual demise, He didn’t predestine their crash or will it, just permitted it to happen as each person had a free choice to not drive down that particular road.
So God is not the Master of His creation, but a student of it who learns by observation; but, if He learns by observation, He changes; if He changes He is mutable; if He is mutable, He is not God—at least, He is not the God who has revealed Himself in scripture.
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Bishopite:
Point being, God’s foreknowledge doesn’t mean He actively predestined some to hell; they freely chose to be without Him.
That God clearly predestines some to glory, clearly indicates that the rest are predestined to condemnation, ipso facto.
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Bishopite:
You’ve phrased this question in an interesting way. God allowed sin in His permissive will, way back before man’s existance. That satan and 1/3 of the angels fell from heaven implies that they “chose” that fall. What kind of God would deliberately make anyone or thing fall into hell without their free will choice?
Everyone who goes to hell freely chooses to do so within God’s decree; everyone who goes to heaven, freely chooses to do so as well, and that too within God’s decree.
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Bishopite:
The problem with Calvinistic predestination is that it says God predestined some people to hell because after the fall all inherit original sin and all always choose evil so that all men choose evil always and God only gives grace to the elect who don’t actually choose to be saved, but are predestined to heaven.
To say that the elect don’t choose to believe is a strawman.

The elect do choose to believe, once they have been enabled to do so.
 
I think you meant He can’t actively choose evil.**Isaiah 45:7

**I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.No equivocation exists in God with respect to His actively choosing evil to happen to anyone.Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for His own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.It’s very clear who made the wicked for the day of evil.Acts 4:27-28

27 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.That too is clear; those gathered to condemn and crucify Christ did so by the hand and purpose of God—like it, or not.

Your error is two-fold, and typical, in that (1) you attempt to parallel the knowledge of God with human knowledge; God’s statement to Israel with respect to that error is ***“you thought I was just like you,” *** which, of course, God is not just like you; but, as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are God’s ways higher than your ways, and His thoughts higher than your thoughts. (2) You focus on, and elevate one attribute of God, namely, love, to the diminishment of God’s other attributes; God is all of His attributes equally; He is not more loving than He is wrathful; He is not merciful than He is just, and so on; He is all of Himself in His fullness at all times; to say that God’s essential nature is love, distorts God, and causes you to worship a lopsided God, to the exclusion of His whole being.

The lopsided God at the hub of your theology causes the wheel of your theology to be
out of “true.”

I would disagree with that; how could ”not a thing” have entered into the world if it is
not a thing (Rom 5:12); how could ”not a thing” be present in Paul, if it is not a thing
(Rom 7:21, 23)?

How does “not a thing,” “do anything?”

So God is not the Master of His creation, but a student of it who learns by observation; but, if He learns by observation, He changes; if He changes He is mutable; if He is mutable, He is not God—at least, He is not the God who has revealed Himself in scripture.

That God clearly predestines some to glory, clearly indicates that the rest are predestined to condemnation, ipso facto.

Everyone who goes to hell freely chooses to do so within God’s decree; everyone who goes to heaven, freely chooses to do so as well, and that too within God’s decree.

To say that the elect don’t choose to believe is a strawman.

The elect do choose to believe, once they have been enabled to do so.
So how does God foreordain sin without being its efficient cause, particularly in the case of the sin of Adam?

God Bless,
Michael
 
I think you meant He can’t actively choose evil.**Isaiah 45:7

**I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.No equivocation exists in God with respect to His actively choosing evil to happen to anyone.Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for His own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.It’s very clear who made the wicked for the day of evil.
Acts 4:27-28

I would disagree with that; how could ”not a thing” have entered into the world if it is
not a thing (Rom 5:12); how could ”not a thing” be present in Paul, if it is not a thing
(Rom 7:21, 23)?

The following is from a Calvinist/Reformed website:

**Is God not said to be the cause of evil?

Sometimes bad translations of the original biblical text can make God appear to be the author or cause of sin. But a more faithful translation shows the original intent of the passage. The Hebrew word ra` means “calamity, disaster, harm”. It can only be used of something wicked as a derived and secondary usage. It is not equivalent with the Hebrew term kha-TAH’ which means “sin, do evil, fail, miss”. The second term is not used with respect to the actions of God. Only the first. God, as Lord of all creation, is certainly behind what we might term calamities or natural disasters. **But such things are not evil in that they have no wicked intentions contrary to the revealed moral principles of God.

In Isaiah 45:7 the LORD (Jehovah) is said to “create” calamity. The NASB properly translates it; “…causing well-being, and creating calamity;” and the NIV translates; “…I bring prosperity and create disaster;”. Sadly the old King James Version has rendered it in a moral sense: “I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (KJV)

In Amos 3:6 the LORD (Jehovah) is said to be the cause of calamity when it occurs in a city. The NASB accurately translates; “… if a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?” The NIV renders it; “… when a disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?”. Again the older King James Version has translated it as moral evil: “… shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?”

God is Not the Creator of sin:

Sin is not an independently existing created thing. It is an attribute, a moral condition of an agent which is contrary to moral good as defined by God’s own nature. It is no more a created thing than is “good”.

girs.com/library/theology/syllabus/theo4.html

God Bless,
Michael
 
So how does God foreordain sin without being its efficient cause, particularly in the case of the sin of Adam?

God Bless,
Michael
Therein lies the “mystery of iniquity,” as Paul calls it.

Nevertheless; God declares that He is sovereign, and He has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass; God also declares that a man is responsible for all of his actions.

Witness the predestining of Judas:**Luke 22:22

“For indeed, the Son of Man is going [to be crucified] as it has
been determined [by God]; but woe to that man by whom He is
betrayed** [Judas]!"
 
The following is from a Calvinist/Reformed website:

**Is God not said to be the cause of evil?

Sometimes bad translations of the original biblical text can make God appear to be the author or cause of sin. But a more faithful translation shows the original intent of the passage. The Hebrew word ra` means “calamity, disaster, harm”. It can only be used of something wicked as a derived and secondary usage. It is not equivalent with the Hebrew term kha-TAH’ which means “sin, do evil, fail, miss”. The second term is not used with respect to the actions of God. Only the first. God, as Lord of all creation, is certainly behind what we might term calamities or natural disasters. **But such things are not evil in that they have no wicked intentions contrary to the revealed moral principles of God.

In Isaiah 45:7 the LORD (Jehovah) is said to “create” calamity. The NASB properly translates it; “…causing well-being, and creating calamity;” and the NIV translates; “…I bring prosperity and create disaster;”. Sadly the old King James Version has rendered it in a moral sense: “I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (KJV)

In Amos 3:6 the LORD (Jehovah) is said to be the cause of calamity when it occurs in a city. The NASB accurately translates; “… if a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?” The NIV renders it; “… when a disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?”. Again the older King James Version has translated it as moral evil: “… shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?”

God is Not the Creator of sin:

Sin is not an independently existing created thing. It is an attribute, a moral condition of an agent which is contrary to moral good as defined by God’s own nature. It is no more a created thing than is “good”.

girs.com/library/theology/syllabus/theo4.html

God Bless,
Michael
God is not the author of sin; nevertheless, God did decree that sin would be in the world.

As your own council of Trent stated: "God’s end in creating this universe is Himself, not the good of man."

God could not display His full glory, and all of His attributes in a sinless creation.**Romans 9:17

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that MY NAME might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”**
 
God is not the author of sin; nevertheless, God did decree that sin would be in the world.
How do you distinguish the two, namely, that God is not the author of sin but he decreed it? Also, if Adam was created without a sin nature, how did God execute His decree (i.e the Fall), without actively causing Adam to sin? Wouldn’t that make Adam’s choice to sin no longer a free choice, but one forced upon him by God?

God Bless,
Michael
 
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mikeledes:
How do you distinguish the two, namely, that God is not the author of sin but he decreed it?
It is distinguished for us by the Christ (Lk 22:22), and the apostles (Acts 2:23; 4:26-28)—as truth, and without explanation.
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mikeledes:
Also, if Adam was created without a sin nature, how did God execute His decree (i.e the Fall), without actively causing Adam to sin?
I don’t know. 🤷 (And I’ve yet to meet anyone who does).
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mikeledes:
Wouldn’t that make Adam’s choice to sin no longer a free choice, but one forced upon him by God?
The WCF (3.1) affirms that the “liberty or contingency of second causes is not taken away, but rather established,” by God’s decree.

The question of how God does this cannot be answered because it has not been revealed, but only declared by God.

Your question insinuates a contradiction in that revelation; however, the inspired writers seem not to be conscious of a contradiction because they do not mention one, nor do they attempt to harmonize the two (God’s decree, man’s freedom and responsibility).

To say that an event is both certain, and uncertain for the same being is a contradiction; but to say that an event, or events are certain for one being [God], and uncertain for another [man] is not a contradiction.

That’s the difference between the exhaustive power and knowledge of the infinite mind, and the fractional power and knowledge of the finite mind.

No one can demonstrate that it is beyond God’s power to make a voluntary act of man an
absolute certainty. 🙂
 
It is distinguished for us by the Christ (Lk 22:22), and the apostles (Acts 2:23; 4:26-28)—as truth, and without explanation.

I don’t know. 🤷 (And I’ve yet to meet anyone who does).

The WCF (3.1) affirms that the “liberty or contingency of second causes is not taken away, but rather established,” by God’s decree.

The question of how God does this cannot be answered because it has not been revealed, but only declared by God.

Your question insinuates a contradiction in that revelation; however, the inspired writers seem not to be conscious of a contradiction because they do not mention one, nor do they attempt to harmonize the two (God’s decree, man’s freedom and responsibility).

To say that an event is both certain, and uncertain for the same being is a contradiction; but to say that an event, or events are certain for one being [God], and uncertain for another [man] is not a contradiction.

That’s the difference between the exhaustive power and knowledge of the infinite mind, and the fractional power and knowledge of the finite mind.

No one can demonstrate that it is beyond God’s power to make a voluntary act of man an
absolute certainty. 🙂
I recognize that the relationship between Divine Providence and the freedom of the will is a mystery many theologians have attempted to understand and explain. Even among Calvinists you have different schools of thought on this issue. Some are “hard” determinists, which I think is often referred to as HyperCalvinism by some, while others are “soft” determinists or compatibilists, namely, those who recognize the freedom of the will and attempt to reconcile it with determinism. I will be away for the weekend, but I will be back on Monday. Meanwhile, I’ll think about this issue, study it a little more, and post something. Have a nice weekend. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
*God, the Ultimate Cause of Evil
This article starts off with a false presumption (no wonder its all wrong) that is mans will is not free. God’s foreknowledge isn’t as Luther nor Calvin proposed. God is in the eternal now, He didn’t just act long ago with one sovereign act but is actively involved in time although sees this time now through eternity.
'Commenting on Pharoah’s heart being hardened by God. Luther wrote:
“His [Pharoah’s] evil will would not have been moved or hardened of itself, but as the omnipotent Agent makes it act (as he does the rest of his creation) by means of his own inescapable will.”
This is where Luther goes wrong. God did not make Pharoah’s heart hardened for God’s active will didn’t impose upon Pharoah freedom to choose. God’s permissive will allowed Pharoah to take the path Pharoah chose. God doesn’t impede on the will of man without mans free will to choose.
Furthermore, God did not simply look into the future and see what Pharoah would do. God is the one who actually caused the hardening of his heart.
Again, this means God directly chooses to create people who are born into sin (original sin) yet have absolutely no chance at heaven; and that God directly changes a persons will without their free consent to that change. This is blasphemous to a God who is love. Of all things God is, love IS is the essence of God. God knows what people will do because of He subsists in the enternal now, but people still have the freedom to actively choose good or evil. God is sovereign, but man is free.
And why would God send Moses to tell him to repent and set free the Israelites?
Exodus 9:7 where it says God hardened Pharoahs doesn’t mean He actively made Pharoah in order to predestine him to hell.
Romans 1:18-27 clearly says God only allows people to go to hell who choose to go there because after the knowledge of God is revealed to them, they actively choose not to follow God.
Romans 1:18-27–
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—**his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. **

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (NIV)
On God’s foreknowledge, Luther wrote: “Had there been in Pharoah any power to turn, or freedom of will that might have gone either way. God could not with such certainty have foretold his hardening.”
Again, this is where Luther went wrong and it goes against Romans 1:18-27.
In other words foreknowledge is due to foreordination, not visa versa. Luther continued: “It would certainly be a hard question, I allow-indeed, an insoluble one-if you sought to establish both the foreknowledge of God and the freedom of man together; for what is harder, yea, more impossible, than maintaining that contraries and contradictories do not clash ? The apostle, therefore, is bridling the ungodly who take offense at his plain speaking, telling them they should realize that the Divine will is fulfilled by what to us is necessity, and that it is definitely established that no freedom or “free-will” is left them, but all things depend on the will of God alone”
Two things should be observed from the above quotations. First, to hold contradictories as both true is not the position of the Reformation, but the position of a muddle-headed thinker (or non-thinker).
Second Luther calls the free-willists “ungodly.” So the foreknoweldge and omnipotence of God are diametrically oppossed to our “free-will.” Either God makes mistakes in his foreknowledge, and errors in his action (which is impossible), or else we act, according to his foreknowledge and action. And by the omnipotence of God, I mean, not the power by which he omits to do many things that he could do, but the active power by which he mightily works all in all. It is in this sense the Scripture calls him omnipotent. This omnipotence and foreknowledge of God, I repeat, untterly destroys the doctrine of free-will. The hardening of Pharoah’s heart was not done by the passive permission of God. Nor did God merely forsee it as and observer passively observes the future. God caused it to come to pass by his "active power."This view certainly establishes God as the ultimate cause of evil. But does this view make man a mere puppet on a string ?
Luther answered, “It is true that Judas acted willingly, and not under compulsion, but his willing was the work of God, brought into being by his omnipotence, like everything else.”
No, Gods omnipotence doesn’t impede on mans will so that man does evil, this is objectively against the nature of God.
Man acts willingly. A puppet not only does not have free will; it does not have any will at all. Man has a will, but his will is in the hands of God, and he directs it wherever he likes (Proverbs 21:1). Therefore, God never causes man to act against his own will, for it is the very will that he controls. Judas acted willingly, not by compulsion.
That God gives man supernatural grace to make a good action, yes. That God changes mans will for man to choose evil is again truly false.
 
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man; but every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.” James 1:13-14.

Rather clear, isn’t it? And settles the question of whether God is the efficient cause of Adam’s sin.
 
cppayne said:
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man; but every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.” James 1:13-14.

Rather clear, isn’t it? And settles the question of whether God is the efficient cause of Adam’s sin.

That verse does not explain Adam’s fall.

Adam was not created with the lusts with which men have been procreated; therefore, it is possible for God to “save” men.

Satan tempted Eve, who enticed Adam, who was not deceived, but who, in a state of innocent holiness, self-determined his, and our condition; and that within the decree of God that Adam should do so.
 
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man; but every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.” James 1:13-14.

Rather clear, isn’t it? And settles the question of whether God is the efficient cause of Adam’s sin.
“It is too bad your translation is not that clear: betterL
Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempts no man. But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured.”

Good ol’ James. He comes through again.

peace
 
I think you meant He can’t

actively choose evil.Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things
.No equivocation exists in God with respect to His actively choosing evil to happen to anyone.
Yes, thank you I meant can’t. 🙂
You say God actively chooses evil but I say He permits it in His permissive will.
I’m not sure what translation you are using.
The Hebrew word “evil” isn’t always translated as “evil” but also woe or clamity, so that God does allow strife and suffering on us but doesn’t nor didn’t create evil.
Isaiah 45:7 “I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.” RSVCE

Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? (Lamentations 3:38, NIV)

Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth? (Lamentations 3:38, NASB)

Same Hebrew word Ra ah can mean evil or ill or calamity. God does allow calamity for sure, He chasens those whom He loves.
I got this from a Protestant website:
Isaiah 45:7 - What does it mean? The word translated “evil” here is the Hebrew word ra’
 
God is not the author of sin; nevertheless, God did decree that sin would be in the world.

As your own council of Trent stated: "God’s end in creating this universe is Himself, not the good of man."

God could not display His full glory, and all of His attributes in a sinless creation.Romans 9:17

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that MY NAME
might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”
God allows evil so that He can do a greater good. The cross was the worst evil, the worst sacrilage ever committed, but the greatest good came out of it.
Love, however is different, it is the one thing that isn’t lost when it is given. If we give our neighbor one of our cars, we are then one car short of what we had before. When we give our neighbor love we don’t have less love than we did before. Gods love is not exponential in its nature and He doesn’t loose any of His love in giving us His love. And when He shares His glory with us, He doesn’t loose any of the glory He had before.
 
This is blasphemous to a God who is love.
I think this is your strongest weakness in your thinking.

**God is just ! **
No, Gods omnipotence doesn’t impede on mans will so that man does evil, this is objectively against the nature of God.
Is it not just against your preception of the nature of God ?

‘Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?’

‘What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make **his power **known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:’

I have often wondered about the word, ‘longsuffering’ - it is one of the fruits of love. However, there is the matter of HIS ‘wrath & power’ - So many like the idea of the God of the fire of love, but find great difficulty with the God of the fire of hate. How can God love and hate… How can we question God’s justice ? Surely like every Judge, He can dispense love and hatred to the fullest. In the end it is for this one reason alone; ‘that I might show my power in thee, and that **my name **might be declared throughout all the earth.’

One cannot avoid the rock that is planted on the way.

‘Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.’ (Romans 9:18)

I am convinced that there are most definitely ‘two seeds’ (Genesis 3:15) < those who abide in the truth, and those who abide not in the truth.

Our greatest problem as mortals is that we are revolted with the idea of God being so in control of all of life. Yet we happily proclaim ‘eternal life’ but cannot accept ‘eternal death’
That God gives man supernatural grace to make a good action, yes. That God changes mans will for man to choose evil is again truly false.
This seems to be a hurdle that you are struggling with. I personally understand that God is able to soften the heart, and harden it, as he sees fit to accomplish his will on earth. It is a little bit like a game of chess.

The elect and reprobate are the pieces. Though the victory is already decreed, the pieces need to follow a set course to ensure this victory. But who is the King of the reprobates ? Has not the Father given ALL authority to His Son ? In the innermost being of the elect is; The Spirit of Christ

But what sort of spirit is in the innermost being of the reprobate ? How did this lying spirit come to be in the heart of the reprobate, this hateful bird of satan, who was a liar from …the beginning ?

Romans 9:19-20

'Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? ’

😊
Pophead.
 
Additional:

relating to the chess idea:- Because of the unruly nature of man’s will; the will of God must surround the respective wills of His creation, not for the common good, but simply because His will is singular and ours is ‘double minded’ < most of the time. 🙂

I think considering the unseen battles of the spiritual realm. We get sick and use anti-biotics; but we do not see what God is doing. We see someone die and we bury them and do not see the hand of God. Seeing the hand of God, is probably the hardest thing for us to see, because it is invisible, yet Scripture reveals that it circles the will of man. (regardless if they are evil or good, or good and evil, or fallen, or whatever.)

:cool:
Sincerely,
Pophead.
 
I think this is your strongest weakness in your thinking.

**God is just ! **

Is it not just against your preception of the nature of God ?

‘Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?’

‘What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make **his power **known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:’

I have often wondered about the word, ‘longsuffering’ - it is one of the fruits of love. However, there is the matter of HIS ‘wrath & power’ - So many like the idea of the God of the fire of love, but find great difficulty with the God of the fire of hate. How can God love and hate… How can we question God’s justice ? Surely like every Judge, He can dispense love and hatred to the fullest. In the end it is for this one reason alone; ‘that I might show my power in thee, and that **my name **might be declared throughout all the earth.’

One cannot avoid the rock that is planted on the way.

‘Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.’ (Romans 9:18)

I am convinced that there are most definitely ‘two seeds’ (Genesis 3:15) < those who abide in the truth, and those who abide not in the truth.

Our greatest problem as mortals is that we are revolted with the idea of God being so in control of all of life. Yet we happily proclaim ‘eternal life’ but cannot accept ‘eternal death’

This seems to be a hurdle that you are struggling with. I personally understand that God is able to soften the heart, and harden it, as he sees fit to accomplish his will on earth. It is a little bit like a game of chess.

The elect and reprobate are the pieces. Though the victory is already decreed, the pieces need to follow a set course to ensure this victory. But who is the King of the reprobates ? Has not the Father given ALL authority to His Son ? In the innermost being of the elect is; The Spirit of Christ

But what sort of spirit is in the innermost being of the reprobate ? How did this lying spirit come to be in the heart of the reprobate, this hateful bird of satan, who was a liar from …the beginning ?

Romans 9:19-20

'Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? ’

😊
Pophead.
I love Protestantism on this site. We have this stream of consciousness of believing anything that comes into your heads. No wonder there are so many Protestant sects.

Pophead, you can start your own religion, if you haven’t already.

You say God is not love. God is just. Yes, he is just, but that justice isn’t a person… The nature of the Blessed Trinity: the relationship existing between the Father and the Son is so strong, it is LOVE. personified. According to St. Thomas, the personal name of the Holy Spirit is that of Love. The love that proceeds from the Father and the Son is a Person, the Holy Spirit. According to St. John, God is Love (1John iv, 16.)
The justice of the Trinity is not a person.

I’d love to see Pophead give us his treatise on the Trinity. What a trip!

peace
 
According to St. Thomas, the personal name of the Holy Spirit is that of Love.
Yes, ‘GOD is love’…yet 'GOD is just and righteous and true as well as being ‘Holy’ — the ‘Holy’ Spirit. 😉
What a trip!
I feel a Beatles song coming on…‘Love is all we need.’

I prefer ‘Holy, Holy, Holy’ — this idea of God being more than just simply ‘love incarnate’ is offensive to some. You forget that ‘God incarnate’ means that **all the divine attributes **attributed to God were in Christ bodily.
You say God is not love
your post-comment addition:- I said this ?

🤷

His servant,
Pophead.
 
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Bishopite:
Same Hebrew word Ra ah can mean evil or ill or calamity. God does allow calamity for sure, He chasens those whom He loves.
I understand that.
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Bishopite:
I agree God predestines some to heaven, the elect. However God allows evil in order to bring about a greater good. God does not create evil.
God does more with evil than simply “allow” it. I realize that you are uncomfortable with respect to saying God, and evil in the same breath; however, God uses evil—read the OT—and His use of evil is more than simply “allowing” it.
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Bishopite:
No, you are incorrect. God does predestine some to heaven, however Calvinisms error occurs when they say God actively reprobates some to hell.
God does not have to actively reprobate anyone; men are reprobate from the womb (Ps 58:3); that’s everyone ever born (Rom 3:23; cf Jn 3:18-19).
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Bishopite:
God is pure love, His justice, holiness flows from His essential essence which is love.
A very stilted understanding of God that influences you to error. The writer of Hebrews says that it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Why is that, if His “essential essence is love?”

Do you believe that God God loves the sinner, and hates only his sin?
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Bishopite:
Evil is NOT a thing. It is not physical, it is not matter, you can’t touch evil. Evil is an act, an act of disobeying God. Evil is not a thing and God didn’t create evil because God created things and yet evil is not a thing.
I disagree. One who sins is evil, and he is a slave to sin and evil (Jn 8:34); therefore, according to you, the one who sins is a slave to ”not a thing,” or "a slave to nothing."
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Bishopite:
God is the master of His creation. You say God created evil but a God who is love can not create something diametrically in opposition to what He is, which is essentially love.
You’ve missed my point which was made in response to your analogy:
God foresaw man’s fall but that doesn’t mean He actively in His active will made man fall nor that He predestined mans fall either. God’s permissive will allows mans true freedom to choose good or evil.
Suppose God saw two cars heading down the road going opposite ways toward each other. Both are on a course poised to slam into each other and both are already know that they aren’t supposed to drive down this road.
God foresaw what is going to happen He foresees their eventual crash into each other; He also sees that they don’t die, they are just injured for the rest of their lives.
God foresaw their eventual demise, He didn’t predestine their crash or will it, just permitted it to happen as each person had a free choice to not drive down that particular road.
If God did not will their eventual demise, He learned by observation; if He learned by observation, He is mutable; if He is mutable, He is not God.
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Bishopite:
Not that’s not the case. If God is truly love then and wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4)
Now you waffle, and say, ”If God is truly love…”

An expression of a desire by God is not a decree of God.
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Bishopite:
Ah chooses to do so within God’s decree. But Gods decree is that He wishes all men to be saved but in Calvinism He actively predestines people to hell; something contrary to a God who IS love.
God’s wish is not God’s decree; it is His desire.

For you to be consistent, you must believe in universal salvation; I’m certain that you do not; therefore, you are inconsistent with respect to God’s desires, and His decrees.
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Bishopite:
Hey on this we agree, however one qualifier, the elect can also choose to disbelieve.
Not according to scripture.**Romans 8:30

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.**The underlined are active verbs with the subject, and the object.

IOW, the one God justifies, He also glorifies.

And the only one who justifies is God, who will draw the called to Christ, and they will come to Christ, and He will raise them up on the last day, because it is the will of the Father that He do so (Jn 6:37ff).

God further promised the Philippian church, and therefore, all believers, that He will complete the good work He began in them.

Wouldn’t you consider God’s work of justification a good work?
 
Yes, ‘GOD is love’…yet 'GOD is just and righteous and true as well as being ‘Holy’ — the ‘Holy’ Spirit. 😉

I feel a Beatles song coming on…‘Love is all we need.’

I prefer ‘Holy, Holy, Holy’ — this idea of God being more than just simply ‘love incarnate’ is offensive to some. You forget that ‘God incarnate’ means that **all the divine attributes **attributed to God were in Christ bodily.

your post-comment addition:- I said this ?

🤷

His servant,
Pophead.
Yes, God is just, and holy, and truth, and all those good things. But only one ‘attribute’ is a Divine Person, that is Love, and that is the Holy Spirit.
"Love Incarnate may be offensive to you, or to ‘some’, but that is the nature of the Trinity.

The most famous of Trinitarian texts in the NT is the Johannine Comma (1John v, 7-8), “And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. And these three are one”. This passage sets forth the true Catholic doctrine, and that it is in perfect harmony with the teaching of St. John’s Gospel.

The procession of the Holy Spirit is considered to be a procession of love, that is to say, the third person of the Blessed Trinity proceeds from the Father and the Son according to the operation of the Divine Will. To know the supreme good in such a way as to comprehend it, is necessarily to love the supreme good. The Father, from all eternity contemplating the Son, and the Son from all eternity contemplating the Father, necessitate an eternal act of mutual love, a divine spiration, common to both the Father and the Son. This spiration issues within the divine essence itself in what we can describe only as the divine breath personified, the Holy Spirit of God, subsisting in the divine essence, but distinct from the Father and the Son by reason of his eternal origin from them.

In the Athanasian creed, we say, “The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding”.

I don’t know, Pophead, if your religion has a Trinity, but that is ours.

peace

Today is the Feast of the Nativity of the BVM.
 
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