Predestination.

[bogeydogg]

Wow that’s interesting history indeed. Would have happen to know of any online link of articles to read with more of this information?

I found this bit of information in Christian Theology by Alister E. McGrath.

Well, wouldn’t you say Calvin put an over emphasis on God’s sovereignty to our freedom of the will so that he made Christians out to have a sort of self abrogation without seeing ourselves as truly children of God.

Yes. But I think what was an idiosynchrocy of Calvin’s day and culture was also compounded by those who came after him and under the banner of his name. That is not uncommon, i.e. the teachings of Cyprian of Carthage and the Montanists.

Interesting. Do you know of any articles that would reference this? I would be interested in them.

You can find Calvin’s writings at CCEL.org. It’s a very protestant website with some pretty shockingly anti-Catholic writings so in general I don’t recomend it but the library is very extensive. BTW, Calvin’s theology is found in The Institutes which are some 2000 pages long. His writings on the matter of predestination are found in Vol. III Chapters 21-24. I have not read through them as I am still a young Christian but I have read some of them as I sought to learn about my faith. I think Calvin’s most useful thing is his commentaries which are extensive to the point of exhaustive. Happy hunting.

One more thing, I highly recommend McGrath’s book. It is a textbook so it is neutral on matters of his personal faith.

 

[Bishopite]

[bogeydogg;2925505]I found this bit of information in Christian Theology by Alister E. McGrath.

Thanks.

Yes. But I think what was an idiosynchrocy of Calvin’s day and culture was also compounded by those who came after him and under the banner of his name. That is not uncommon, i.e. the teachings of Cyprian of Carthage and the Montanists.

I also see Calvin as putting an over emphasis on God’s wrath without starting with the proper essential nature of God which is love; that all He does flows out of His love.

You can find Calvin’s writings at CCEL.org. It’s a very protestant website with some pretty shockingly anti-Catholic writings so in general I don’t recomend it but the library is very extensive. BTW, Calvin’s theology is found in The Institutes which are some 2000 pages long. His writings on the matter of predestination are found in Vol. III Chapters 21-24. I have not read through them as I am still a young Christian but I have read some of them as I sought to learn about my faith. I think Calvin’s most useful thing is his commentaries which are extensive to the point of exhaustive. Happy hunting.

Ah, yes ccel.org from Phillip Schaff. I know it well.

One more thing, I highly recommend McGrath’s book. It is a textbook so it is neutral on matters of his personal faith.

Oh, good. Thanks for the information.

 

[Bishopite]

The idea of total depravity is not that man is evil in everything he does.

Perhaps you have another version of the Reformed teaching on Total depravity. Mans heart is wicked, deceitful, full of anger Reformed say, that man can do NO good at all. I have a good friend who is a Reformed pastor, has his Masters from Westminster theological Seminary. He teaches that man can do no good whatsoever and that all man does is evil, that even the pagan can do no good and has NO good within himself. Pagans merely have “common grace” which is the type of grace that doesn’t save but is a sort of generic grace, but get this, those pagans who only have common grace will never be saved because they can’t turn their wills to God because they didn’t receive the correct type of grace because God predestined them not to receive it.
Calvinism borrowed a few things from Catholicism it seems, for “common grace” is close to the Catholic teaching of “sufficient grace” although in Catholicism everyone received sufficient grace and some receive efficacious grace which is the saving type of grace. And everyone can act upon the sufficient grace they have received and receive efficacious grace in order to be saved.
Some of the poor souls with mere common grace in Calvinism can’t receive a saving type of grace because God predestined them NOT to receive it. They have no hope whatsoever. Catholicism says that EVERYONE who has sufficient grace (all people) can receive efficacious grace if they respond with their will to God’s call and He will give them efficacious grace in order to be saved.

After all even Hitler’s dog like him… probably. The idea is that rather the effect of sin on fallen man is such that man cannot escape it’s grasp apart from the Grace of God to empower man to know and love God.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

When it comes to Predestination I never here much about views that would come inbetween Thomism on the one hand and Congruism or Molinism on the other hand.

I think that’s where the truth may lie.

Are there any theologians other than Father Most whose theology lies inbetween?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

This must be a hard question to answer. Are the number of theologoians who are inbetween Thomism and molinism concerning predestination few in number?

 

[123defiant]

Hi as a former athiest turned Catholic I find this discussion facinating, Personally as Monolist I believe that Monlism is easier to reconcile with scripture but I accept the Thomist view is equally Valid.

 

[mikeledes]

That’s an honest answer as I too have gone from the Molinist side to the Thomistic side and neither nor any other version like Congruism or Syncretism can completely describe the way gratia sufficiens operates within the human soul. It is a mystery indeed.
As Ott says:
“Is efficacious grace intrinsically different from sufficient grace or only extrinsically different by reason of the free will assent of the will?”

Many see Molinism as a form of Arminianism? How would you distinguish the two?

God bless,
Michael

 

[123defiant]

As to the diference between Monlism and Arminrism, Monolism says that God creates the circumstances in which man is able to come to God freely or reject him (i think)

I’ll try to use this example X priest is evangelizing country Y a religious figure A from country Y says my god is better than your God,

X priest says ok, raise a recently dead person, Person A prays to false God and acomplishes nothing, Jesus works through X priest to raise person so to the population can see that Jesus is true God, people then have the free will to come to Jesus or to continue to reject him.

Another example i guess would be the story of Ellias Or Elijah (can’t remember which) and the priests of Baal in the Old Testament.