Predestination?

[mikeledes]

What a bunch of nonsense, I outwardly reject any idea that God simply likes some people and dislikes others from before their creation. How stupid and hopeless for people… It removes all free will and simply puts your salvation in a lottery of were you favored by God or not? Ohh you weren’t God has disliked you from the beginning to time have fun burning in hell for eternity.

The more I delve into the teachings of this Church the more I wonder why I am a part of it.

Could God do it? Of course… Does He? I highly doubt it, all men are loved by God equally, all men recieve Grace for salvation. it is up to men to freely accept it or reject it.

Foreknowledge doesn’t mean God directed.

Here are some excellent resourced on Catholic predestination:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

On Molinism:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

It’s all about how its interpreted. There are plenty of passages in the Bible that lend towards man’s free will to freely accept the gift given equally to all men. And St. Augustine said unbaptized babies go to hell you’ll excuse me if I don’t accept his writings or teachings as Gospel. None of his writings are binding on the Church or the faithful.

But predestination is binding on the Church or the faithful. It is an infallible dogma affirmed and reaffirmed by the Councils of Orange and Trent.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[lukewarm]

But predestination is binding on the Church or the faithful. It is an infallible dogma affirmed and reaffirmed by the Councils of Orange and Trent.

God Bless,
Michael

Wasn’t Limbo affirmed at the Council of I believe Lyons? And by several Popes? Why is it then today it is called a “theological concept”?

If as a Catholic I must accept a Thomist or Molinist idea of predestination than I guess I’m a heretic and not a Catholic. I can accept an Arminian teaching of predestination where it is basically foreknowledge not preordaining anything.

 

[ChadS]

But predestination is binding on the Church or the faithful. It is an infallible dogma affirmed and reaffirmed by the Councils of Orange and Trent.

God Bless,
Michael

Michael I agree with what you said here. I think part of the problem when Catholics discuss “predestination” too often the only definition people have in their head is the one meant by Calvin and his followers.

The Catholic understanding of predestination is substantially different from Calvins and much less harsh. When you read St. Thomas Aquinas and the relevant parts of The Summa predestination is a beautiful doctrine that makes a tremendous amount of sense. When you hear from Calvin and his followers predestination sounds like the acts of a petty and vindictive god.

It seems to me that Catholics would be better off to use a different phraseology to distinguish our theology from Calvin’s even though some of the language may be the same (although the definitions are different).

ChadS

 

[mikeledes]

Wasn’t Limbo affirmed at the Council of I believe Lyons? And by several Popes? Why is it then today it is called a “theological concept”?

If as a Catholic I must accept a Thomist or Molinist idea of predestination than I guess I’m a heretic and not a Catholic. I can accept an Arminian teaching of predestination where it is basically foreknowledge not preordaining anything.

Did you read the links I provided?

Proverbs 3:5

**5Trust in the LORD with all your heart
     And do not lean on your own understanding.**

There are many things that do not make complete sense to us because they are a mystery (i.e. Trinity, predestination, etc.). We know that God is holy, good, and infinitely wise. That’s why I prefer to put my full trust on what He has revealed to us than on what I think makes the most sense.

Arminianism is a Protestant theology that is rooted in Protestant principles. A Catholic who subscribes to Arminianism will have serious theological problems (i.e. the unmerited gift of final perseverance, the role of good works, etc.)

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Michael I agree with what you said here. I think part of the problem when Catholics discuss “predestination” too often the only definition people have in their head is the one meant by Calvin and his followers.

The Catholic understanding of predestination is substantially different from Calvins and much less harsh. When you read St. Thomas Aquinas and the relevant parts of The Summa predestination is a beautiful doctrine that makes a tremendous amount of sense. When you hear from Calvin and his followers predestination sounds like the acts of a petty and vindictive god.

It seems to me that Catholics would be better off to use a different phraseology to distinguish our theology from Calvin’s even though some of the language may be the same (although the definitions are different).

ChadS

I agree with your analysis on Aquinas vs. Calvin. By “phraseology”, are you referring to the word “predestination?”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[chrisb]

Wasn’t Limbo affirmed at the Council of I believe Lyons? And by several Popes? Why is it then today it is called a “theological concept”?

It is not a ‘theological concept’ but it is a ‘theological hypothesis’ and one that is reasonably argued with Sacred Scripture. Although the alternative seems much more diabolic to me, that they actually suffer the pains of Hell.

If as a Catholic I must accept a Thomist or Molinist idea of predestination than I guess I’m a heretic and not a Catholic. I can accept an Arminian teaching of predestination where it is basically foreknowledge not preordaining anything.

Actually, Catholic Theology concerning Predestination is very much in line with what was taught by Classic Arminianism. Perhaps you can offer where you believe they differ?