Preference Poll on Liturgy TLM - NO

[maryj]

I chose N.O no changes necessary, I come from a very traditional catholic parish. Latin, chanting etc.
Tried a TLM one time and didn’t care for it at all. But then again I had absolutely no idea how to follow what was happening. I was very confused. Not that that is the fault of the TLM.

 

[Ahlman]

The Pope is (or has been) a frequent critic of the NO, in fact, calling it a fabrication. He needs not say more. My vote is for one Catholic culture, more TLM.

He has also said the following:

“In my view, a new edition [of the Missal]
will need to make it quite clear that the so-called ‘Missal of Paul VI’ is nothing other than a renewed form of the same Missal to which Pius X, Urban VIII, Pius V and their predecessors have contributed, right from the Church’s earliest history. It is of the very essence of the Church that she should be aware of her unbroken continuity throughout the history of faith, expressed in an ever-present unity of prayer. This awareness of continuity is destroyed just as much by those who “opt” for a book supposed to have been produced 400 years ago as by those who would like to be forever drawing up new liturgies. At bottom, these two attitudes are identical."

(Quoted from: adoremus.org/0906BenedictXVI.html)

 

[JRKH]

I chose N.O no changes necessary, I come from a very traditional catholic parish. Latin, chanting etc.
Tried a TLM one time and didn’t care for it at all. But then again I had absolutely no idea how to follow what was happening. I was very confused. Not that that is the fault of the TLM.

That is not at all unusual, particularly if you have never been exposed before. I have had previous exposure and still have some trouble “following along”.
My method is that once mass begins I just begin reading my way through the mass in my missal. I might have to jump forward or back a bit here and there but I generally find that I’m pretty close to where I should be at any given time. Other times I might not use my missal much at all and just watch and “be” in the mass. It depends on where I am “at” emotionally. Actually this is one of the advantages of the TLM. It allows for this simple, quiet “being” in the mass.

I don’t have them, but perhaps someone here can suggest some on-line resources for those people who are interested in the TLM and would like to “bone up” before they go. I would be interested in that also.

The church we attend has booklets for the TLM mass that are quite good. Latin on one side of the page and English on the other with margin notes for standing kneeling etc. and some additional explaination. Perhaps you could suggest that in your area.

James

 

[Fitswimmer]

I attend TLM as my regular Sunday mass, and only attend NO as Daily Mass now.

I left the NO because the parish I attended had gone further than I was willing to go in regard to liberalism. We spent a lot of time discussing ecumenism, while our own parishioners didn’t know where to genuflect-if they bothered to do it at all. We have SIX deacons, who were preaching on weekends more often than the 2 Priests. I taught CCD there for one year and was told that the children were not to be expected to memorize anything. My fourth grade class of 10 students had only 2 children who attended Mass regularly. I was spoken to about asking who attended-that’s a no-no. These poor kids didn’t know the basic prayers, the 10 Commandments! And since they weren’t to memorize anything, I couldn’t teach them those important things either!!
The last straw was a Deacon’s sermon on the gospel passage where Jesus throws the moneychangers out of the temple. We were told that the author “took liberty” in this story because “as we all know, Jesus would never have displayed anger, or had a tantrum like a 2 year old”

I hope that others have a better experience than I did. I think a few more years there and I would barely be Catholic at all!

 

[JRKH]

I attend TLM as my regular Sunday mass, and only attend NO as Daily Mass now.

I left the NO because the parish I attended had gone further than I was willing to go in regard to liberalism. We spent a lot of time discussing ecumenism, while our own parishioners didn’t know where to genuflect-if they bothered to do it at all. We have SIX deacons, who were preaching on weekends more often than the 2 Priests. I taught CCD there for one year and was told that the children were not to be expected to memorize anything. My fourth grade class of 10 students had only 2 children who attended Mass regularly. I was spoken to about asking who attended-that’s a no-no. These poor kids didn’t know the basic prayers, the 10 Commandments! And since they weren’t to memorize anything, I couldn’t teach them those important things either!!
The last straw was a Deacon’s sermon on the gospel passage where Jesus throws the moneychangers out of the temple. We were told that the author “took liberty” in this story because “as we all know, Jesus would never have displayed anger, or had a tantrum like a 2 year old”

I hope that others have a better experience than I did. I think a few more years there and I would barely be Catholic at all!

These kinds of things are just plain frightening!!

James

 

[japhy]

I voted for “N.O. = Needs change. Not reverent enough” and “TLM = Been to TLM and would like to see more use of it”.

I’ve been reading a fair amount of material on the “reform of the reform”, and I’m starting to wish that I could be personally involved in the process of re-examining the 1962 liturgy, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, and a new reform of the liturgy.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

In the “Olden Days” a catholic could go into any catholic church anywhere in the world and get the same mass. The music might vary, and you wouldn’t understand the serman, but the liturgy would be the same.

Like I said earlier, don’t supplant the N.O. just recognize the TLM as the revered older brother in the liurgy and embrace it as such.

James

I think it’s important to see that, as your post actually contains, arguments can be made for the EF in terms of uniformity but also in terms of legitimate diversity. The “Olden Days” of a uniform liturgy throughout the world are really a post-Tridentine phenomenon, since before that Quo Primum (1570) the Latin Church had many variants on the Roman liturgy. By saying we should let the two forms we have now co-exist you are really hearkening back to this age of diversity and thus making a case for the TLM on that basis.

But despite diversity, worshippers could expect (before 1970) that within their rite, things would stay the same, giving them uniformity on at least the diocesan level. Since variants were often small or regional, this uniformity would also have been much greater. So one can make the case for uniformity based on that historical precedent OR on the benefit we feel we acquired when the Roman books became standardized over time for almost the entire Latin Church. Either way, the tremendous possibility for diversity within celebrations of the NO so that 50 parishes celebrating the “same” rite within a diocese could all have different liturgies has certainly sprung the bounds of our historical precedent.

 

[JRKH]

I think it’s important to see that, as your post actually contains, arguments can be made for the EF in terms of uniformity but also in terms of legitimate diversity. The “Olden Days” of a uniform liturgy throughout the world are really a post-Tridentine phenomenon, since before that Quo Primum (1570) the Latin Church had many variants on the Roman liturgy. By saying we should let the two forms we have now co-exist you are really hearkening back to this age of diversity and thus making a case for the TLM on that basis.

But despite diversity, worshippers could expect (before 1970) that within their rite, things would stay the same, giving them uniformity on at least the diocesan level. Since variants were often small or regional, this uniformity would also have been much greater. So one can make the case for uniformity based on that historical precedent OR on the benefit we feel we acquired when the Roman books became standardized over time for almost the entire Latin Church. Either way, the tremendous possibility for diversity within celebrations of the NO so that 50 parishes celebrating the “same” rite within a diocese could all have different liturgies has certainly sprung the bounds of our historical precedent.

It is interesting that your statements match up nicely with the poll results so far. Most people agree that the N.O. needs work to improve the reverence level. That, along with the strong desire to see more of the TLM seems to indicate a strong desire for more uniformity.

James

 

[anamchara]

Wow, a lot of TLM support in there. I voted for the NO to make some changes toward being more reverent, which is surprising for me. But I feel we need to be more on the same page in the NO. Our Bishop is asking all the parishes to make some improvements in the liturgy. We have a younger priest who is up on what we should and shouldn’t be doing so he is getting everyone all into shape. So far, I’ve been very satisfied. Of course we still have our guitar music, horns, flutes etc, which I do love and wouldn’t want to go away. We are singing The Lamb of God in Latin/English which is cool but tricky if you don’t know how to pronounce the words luckily I have my FIL’s little child’s Holy Mass book from 1959.

As far as the TLM. I wouldn’t want that every Sunday. I’d like to attend one in our down town cathedral some day but that’s about it. I really do love the NO.

 

[JRKH]

Wow, a lot of TLM support in there. I voted for the NO to make some changes toward being more reverent, which is surprising for me. But I feel we need to be more on the same page in the NO. Our Bishop is asking all the parishes to make some improvements in the liturgy. We have a younger priest who is up on what we should and shouldn’t be doing so he is getting everyone all into shape. So far, I’ve been very satisfied. Of course we still have our guitar music, horns, flutes etc, which I do love and wouldn’t want to go away. We are singing The Lamb of God in Latin/English which is cool but tricky if you don’t know how to pronounce the words luckily I have my FIL’s little child’s Holy Mass book from 1959.

As far as the TLM. I wouldn’t want that every Sunday. I’d like to attend one in our down town cathedral some day but that’s about it. I really do love the NO.

I’m glad that you are happy with the N.O. and that your Diocese is working on getting things more consistant and reverent. I too do not want to see the N.O. go away.

I hope you do have a chance to go to the TLM soon. Perhaps a good time would be over the upcoming Christmas season. I do think you will be favorably impressed.

James

 

[mikeanayaus]

I usually go to the Ordinary Form but occasionally I attend the Extraordinary Form if it’s a High Mass. Both forms of the Mass can be extremely reverent and uplifting, it just depends on the priest and congregation. Honestly though, I would prefer a Novus Ordo mass with chant, incense, etc. to a Low Mass.

 

[JRKH]

Well the Preference Poll is closed now and I would like to thank everyone who participated. I apologize to anyone who was unable to vote the way they would have liked because of either confusion in number of votes allowed or in the available choices. I did maybe try to do too much with the poll but the results are very encouraging and the posts were also enlightening.

As of this posting there had been:
745 views of the thread
110 votes
30 posts onto the thread.

While we certainly cannot draw any firm detailed conclusions from this small and unscientific sample it certainly appears that there is ample concern, at least on these boards, about the reverence of the NO mass and a desire to see the TLM recognized and used more.

Voting in the N.O. section:
83 votes cast
60% felt the N.O. needs improved (50/83)
36% felt it was OK as is. (30/83)

In the TLM section
88 votes cast
Overall 85 percent gave positive responses to the TLM.
Of those who have attended TLM:
70.5% want to see more TLM while only 8% said they didn’t like it
For those who haven’t been to the TLM:
The sample is quite small but
About twice as many expressed interest in the TLM than are not interested.

As replies posted most seem to reflect the poll. There seems to be a real tolerance for the TLM and the NO to exist side by side.

It appears that, despite the sometimes contentious debates we have here, there is a broad desire to regain reverence and consistancy in the liturgy, whether that is through the NO or the TLM.

May God continue to bless and guide His church.

James

 

[peary]

I don’t care if the poll is ‘closed’. Years ago, our parish priest offered the Novus Ordo in LATIN at both Christmas and Easter(this was back in the late 70s, by the way). The choir sang in Latin, and did a fabulous job. It was quite moving. It certainly had ALL the sacredness of the Tridentine Mass, and was even more meaningful in that the congregation directly participated. If more parishes were to have offered the Novus Ordo as it was intended, it’s greatness and beauty would have been understood, appreciated, and embraced. To now experience the Novus Ordo as a ‘vulgar’ rite is a travesty.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t care if the poll is ‘closed’.

Sorry if I gave the impression that the thread was closed. Only the poll is closed to voting.
Everyone is welcome to continue posting comments.

Years ago, our parish priest offered the Novus Ordo in LATIN at both Christmas and Easter(this was back in the late 70s, by the way). The choir sang in Latin, and did a fabulous job. It was quite moving. It certainly had ALL the sacredness of the Tridentine Mass, and was even more meaningful in that the congregation directly participated. If more parishes were to have offered the Novus Ordo as it was intended, it’s greatness and beauty would have been understood, appreciated, and embraced. To now experience the Novus Ordo as a ‘vulgar’ rite is a travesty.

That really seems to be the gist of the voting and comments. That a great many are just tired of the “Vulgar Travesties”. Whether it is the TLM or the NO being celebrated is less of an issue.

If the votes in this poll are truly representative then I believe there will be an ever increasing pressure on the Bishops and Clergy to curb the abuses, or risk backlash from the parishoners.

James

 

[japhy]

That really seems to be the gist of the voting and comments. That a great many are just tired of the “Vulgar Travesties”. Whether it is the TLM or the NO being celebrated is less of an issue.

My latest “travesty”: the “Jenga Mass”. Google it.

 

[Auntie_M]

Is it a REAL surprise that there were 62% wanting to see more use of the TLM on a TRADITIONLIST THREAD? Come on …

 

[JRKH]

Is it a REAL surprise that there were 62% wanting to see more use of the TLM on a TRADITIONLIST THREAD? Come on …

I confess to some confusion here.
This poll was posted purposely on the liturgy board specifically to get as much of a cross section as possible. That being said I guess I was surprised and gratified to see such an outpouring of support for the EF.

Peace
James