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Michael_Welter
Guest
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David_B
Guest
Michael Welter:
I find it interesting in a few polls I’ve done recently, an overwhelming majority of people would like to see only male altar servers and a return to the use of altar rails, but there is no clear majority on preference for receiving holy communion.
Unlike other issues, this is not one where the overall consensus is for a return to the Pre-Conciliar usage.
If you’re not interested in the discussion you may choose not to participate.And yet ANOTHER thread where we can beat this dead horse some more.
I find it interesting in a few polls I’ve done recently, an overwhelming majority of people would like to see only male altar servers and a return to the use of altar rails, but there is no clear majority on preference for receiving holy communion.
Unlike other issues, this is not one where the overall consensus is for a return to the Pre-Conciliar usage.
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Angels_Watchin
Guest
I posted this elsewhere, but I love the quotes!
COMMUNION in the HAND
**STATEMENTS FROM POPES, SAINTS & CHURCH COUNCILS ********
St. Sixtus I (circa 115)
*“The Sacred Vessels are not to be handled by others than those consecrated to the Lord.” *******
Pope St. Eutychian (275-283)
Forbade the faithful from taking the Sacred Host in their hand.
St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church (330-379)
"The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in times of persecution.”
St. Basil (330-379) says clearly that to receive Communion by one’s own hand is ONLY PERMITTED IN TIMES OF PERSECUTION or, as was the case with monks in the desert, when no deacon or priest was available to give It. * “It is not necessary to show that it does not constitute a grave fault for a person to communicate with his own hand in a time of persecution when there is no priest or deacon.”* (Letter 93) The text implies that to receive in the hand under other circumstances, outside of persecution, would be a grave fault.
The Council of Saragossa (380)
Excommunicated anyone who dared continue receiving Holy Communion by hand. This was confirmed by the Synod of Toledo.
Pope St. Leo the Great (440-461)
Energetically defended and required faithful obedience to the practice of administering Holy Communion on the tongue of the faithful. “One receives in the mouth what one believes by faith”
**Pope St. Gregory The Great (590-604) **
In his dialogues (Roman 3, c. 3) he relates how Pope St. Agapito had a miracle occur during the Mass, after having placed the Body of the Lord into someone’s mouth. We are also told by John the Deacon of this Pope’s manner of giving Holy Communion.
**The Synod of Rouen (650) **
Condemned Communion in the hand to halt the widespread abuses that occurred from this practice, and as a safeguard against sacrilege. The Synod of Rouen says, “Do not put the Eucharist in the hands of any layman or laywomen, but ONLY in their mouths.”
The Sixth Ecumenical Council, at Constantinople (680-681)
Forbade the faithful to take the Sacred Host in their hand, threatening transgressors with excommunication. The Council of Constantinople which was known as “in trullo,” (not one of the ecumenical councils held there) prohibited the faithful from giving Communion to themselves (which is of course what happens when the Sacred Particle is placed in the hand of the communicant). It decreed an excommunication of one week’s duration for those who would do so in the presence of a bishop, priest or deacon.
**St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) **
“Out of reverence towards this sacrament [the Holy Eucharist], nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest’s hands, for touching this sacrament.” (Summa Theologica, Part III, Q. 82, Art. 3, Rep. Obj. 8)
(continued)
COMMUNION in the HAND
**STATEMENTS FROM POPES, SAINTS & CHURCH COUNCILS ********
St. Sixtus I (circa 115)
*“The Sacred Vessels are not to be handled by others than those consecrated to the Lord.” *******
Pope St. Eutychian (275-283)
Forbade the faithful from taking the Sacred Host in their hand.
St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church (330-379)
"The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in times of persecution.”
St. Basil (330-379) says clearly that to receive Communion by one’s own hand is ONLY PERMITTED IN TIMES OF PERSECUTION or, as was the case with monks in the desert, when no deacon or priest was available to give It. * “It is not necessary to show that it does not constitute a grave fault for a person to communicate with his own hand in a time of persecution when there is no priest or deacon.”* (Letter 93) The text implies that to receive in the hand under other circumstances, outside of persecution, would be a grave fault.
The Council of Saragossa (380)
Excommunicated anyone who dared continue receiving Holy Communion by hand. This was confirmed by the Synod of Toledo.
Pope St. Leo the Great (440-461)
Energetically defended and required faithful obedience to the practice of administering Holy Communion on the tongue of the faithful. “One receives in the mouth what one believes by faith”
**Pope St. Gregory The Great (590-604) **
In his dialogues (Roman 3, c. 3) he relates how Pope St. Agapito had a miracle occur during the Mass, after having placed the Body of the Lord into someone’s mouth. We are also told by John the Deacon of this Pope’s manner of giving Holy Communion.
**The Synod of Rouen (650) **
Condemned Communion in the hand to halt the widespread abuses that occurred from this practice, and as a safeguard against sacrilege. The Synod of Rouen says, “Do not put the Eucharist in the hands of any layman or laywomen, but ONLY in their mouths.”
The Sixth Ecumenical Council, at Constantinople (680-681)
Forbade the faithful to take the Sacred Host in their hand, threatening transgressors with excommunication. The Council of Constantinople which was known as “in trullo,” (not one of the ecumenical councils held there) prohibited the faithful from giving Communion to themselves (which is of course what happens when the Sacred Particle is placed in the hand of the communicant). It decreed an excommunication of one week’s duration for those who would do so in the presence of a bishop, priest or deacon.
**St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) **
“Out of reverence towards this sacrament [the Holy Eucharist], nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest’s hands, for touching this sacrament.” (Summa Theologica, Part III, Q. 82, Art. 3, Rep. Obj. 8)
(continued)
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Angels_Watchin
Guest
The Council of Trent (1545-1565)
“The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an Apostolic Tradition.”
Pope St. Pius X
When Pope St. Pius X was on his death bed in August of 1914, and Holy Communion was brought to him as Viaticum, he did not and was not allowed to receive in the hand: he received on the tongue according to the law and practice of the Catholic Church.
Pope Paul VI (1963-1978)
“[Communion on the tongue] rests upon a tradition of many centuries” and “is a sign of the reverence of the faithful toward the Eucharist. The practice in no way detracts from the personal dignity of those who approach this great sacrament and it is a part of the preparation needed for the most fruitful reception of the Lord’s body. . . . “In addition, this manner of communicating . . . gives more effective assurance that Holy Communion will be distributed with the appropriate reverence, decorum, and dignity; that any danger of profaning the Eucharistic species, in which the whole and entire Christ, God and man, is substantially contained and permanently present in a unique way, will be avoided; and finally that the diligent care which the Church has always commended for the very fragments of the consecrated bread will be maintained. . . .“[Communion in the hand carries with it certain dangers.] They are a lessening of reverence toward the noble sacrament of the altar, its profanation, or the adulteration of correct doctrine.”*
*Instruction on the Manner of Administering Holy Communion, issued by the Vatican, the Congregation for Divine Worship Pope Paul VI, May 29, 1969
“This method [on the tongue] must be retained.” (Memoriale Domini)
Pope John Paul II
To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained. (Dominicae Cenae, 11)
“It is not permitted that the faithful should themselves pick up the consecrated bread and the sacred chalice, still less that they should hand them from one to another.” (Inaest. Donum, April 17, 1980, sec. 9)
**SCRIPTURE **
"And [the Lord] said to me: …“But you, son of man, hear what I say to you;** be not rebellious like that rebellious house, open your mouth, and eat what I give you.” **
And when I looked, behold, a hand was stretched out to me, and, lo, a written scroll was in it …
And He said to me; "Son of man, eat what is offered to you; eat this scroll, and go speak to the house of Israel**. “ So I opened my mouth, and He gave me the scroll to eat.** (O.T. the scroll=the word; N.T.
“and the word was made flesh…”) And he said to me, “Son of man, eat this scroll that I give you and fill your stomach with it.” Then I ate it, and it was in my mouth as sweet as honey." (Ez. 2:1,8,9; 3:13, RSV)
In another place, in a psalm with clear, prophetic, Eucharistic overtones, which is used in the Office of Corpus Christi, the Lord says to us, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you from the land of Egypt. Open wide your mouth and I will fill it … Israel I would feed with finest wheat and fill them with honey from the rock."
The only ones to communicate always standing and with their hands outstretched were, from the beginning, the Arians, who obstinately denied the Divinity of Christ and who could not see in the Eucharist any more than a simple symbol of “union,” which can be taken and handled at will.
God bless,
Angel
“The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an Apostolic Tradition.”
Pope St. Pius X
When Pope St. Pius X was on his death bed in August of 1914, and Holy Communion was brought to him as Viaticum, he did not and was not allowed to receive in the hand: he received on the tongue according to the law and practice of the Catholic Church.
Pope Paul VI (1963-1978)
“[Communion on the tongue] rests upon a tradition of many centuries” and “is a sign of the reverence of the faithful toward the Eucharist. The practice in no way detracts from the personal dignity of those who approach this great sacrament and it is a part of the preparation needed for the most fruitful reception of the Lord’s body. . . . “In addition, this manner of communicating . . . gives more effective assurance that Holy Communion will be distributed with the appropriate reverence, decorum, and dignity; that any danger of profaning the Eucharistic species, in which the whole and entire Christ, God and man, is substantially contained and permanently present in a unique way, will be avoided; and finally that the diligent care which the Church has always commended for the very fragments of the consecrated bread will be maintained. . . .“[Communion in the hand carries with it certain dangers.] They are a lessening of reverence toward the noble sacrament of the altar, its profanation, or the adulteration of correct doctrine.”*
*Instruction on the Manner of Administering Holy Communion, issued by the Vatican, the Congregation for Divine Worship Pope Paul VI, May 29, 1969
“This method [on the tongue] must be retained.” (Memoriale Domini)
Pope John Paul II
To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained. (Dominicae Cenae, 11)
“It is not permitted that the faithful should themselves pick up the consecrated bread and the sacred chalice, still less that they should hand them from one to another.” (Inaest. Donum, April 17, 1980, sec. 9)
**SCRIPTURE **
"And [the Lord] said to me: …“But you, son of man, hear what I say to you;** be not rebellious like that rebellious house, open your mouth, and eat what I give you.” **
And when I looked, behold, a hand was stretched out to me, and, lo, a written scroll was in it …
And He said to me; "Son of man, eat what is offered to you; eat this scroll, and go speak to the house of Israel**. “ So I opened my mouth, and He gave me the scroll to eat.** (O.T. the scroll=the word; N.T.
“and the word was made flesh…”) And he said to me, “Son of man, eat this scroll that I give you and fill your stomach with it.” Then I ate it, and it was in my mouth as sweet as honey." (Ez. 2:1,8,9; 3:13, RSV)
In another place, in a psalm with clear, prophetic, Eucharistic overtones, which is used in the Office of Corpus Christi, the Lord says to us, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you from the land of Egypt. Open wide your mouth and I will fill it … Israel I would feed with finest wheat and fill them with honey from the rock."
The only ones to communicate always standing and with their hands outstretched were, from the beginning, the Arians, who obstinately denied the Divinity of Christ and who could not see in the Eucharist any more than a simple symbol of “union,” which can be taken and handled at will.
God bless,
Angel
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april_hosen
Guest
I didn’t know you had an option, hehe.
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Patchunky
Guest
Angels Watchin said:
And the 7th Ecumenical Council forbids kneeling on Sundays at Divine Liturgy (Mass) and during the entire Paschal Season, from Easter Sunday until Pentecost. So, if you stop Communion in the hand based on the teachings of the Holy Councils, you have to stop kneeling at Mass on Sundays and during the Paschal Season.
Fair is fair after all…
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Angels_Watchin
Guest
I am speaking from the Latin, Roman Rite. You used “Divine Liturgy” - are you speaking of the Byzantine? or other? Because we (Roman) are never forbidden to kneel (except for that poor woman who was refused communion by Bishop Tod Brown because she was kneeling!)
Blessings,
Angel
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thistle
Guest
I receive the host on the tongue but why is people’s preference in how they receive communion interesting? It is permitted to receive the host on the tongue or in the hand so they have a choice.
You might also remember that at the Institution of the Eucharist (The Last Supper) Jesus broke off a piece of bread and passed the rest to his disciples who then passed it round hand to hand until they all had a piece.
Also they were all seated (not kneeling or standing).
You might also remember that at the Institution of the Eucharist (The Last Supper) Jesus broke off a piece of bread and passed the rest to his disciples who then passed it round hand to hand until they all had a piece.
Also they were all seated (not kneeling or standing).
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robertaf
Guest
AMAZING RESULTS!
Why? I just left a thread that asked if the Church was bogged down with rules. Most posters loved the rules! Thought it was equal with love or maybe a sign of love in the Catholic Church.
This poll asks what YOUR preferred way of receiving Holy Communion.
It does not ask what Holy Mother Church prefers.
We all know the recommended way by Holy Mother Church.
I guess we love the rules only when we agree with them.
Why? I just left a thread that asked if the Church was bogged down with rules. Most posters loved the rules! Thought it was equal with love or maybe a sign of love in the Catholic Church.
This poll asks what YOUR preferred way of receiving Holy Communion.
It does not ask what Holy Mother Church prefers.
We all know the recommended way by Holy Mother Church.
I guess we love the rules only when we agree with them.
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tadly
Guest
According to Deacon Ed, the poll results and the church rules are the same.
“I’m confused by the question. Are you talking out one’s personal preference or the Church’s preference? If the latter, the norm is communion on the tongue with the option of receiving in the hand (in the United States and a few other countries that have asked for that permission).”
That is if I am reading this right.
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Patchunky
Guest
Angels Watchin:
hope this helps…
The 7th Ecumenical Council took place in the 8th century. It specifically states that kneeling on Sundays is forbidden.
hope this helps…
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
Consecrated bread soaked in wine and received by spoon in the mouth. That is the Byzantine Ruthenian way.
Dan L
Dan L
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Angels Watchin:
Again, not infallible.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Angels Watchin said:
And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
This has nothing to do with reception of the Eucharist in the Hand as even when one recieves that way they are recieving from the priest.
I stop here as you just continue making the same errors as I have already addressed in my last reply.
You seem to ignore the fact that the reception of the Eucharist in the Hand was something that was done in the Early Church.
Or do you really think that the Apostles excommunicated themselves when they recieved in the Hand at the Last Supper?
I will leave you with what Saint Cyril of Jerusalem had to say on the matter in the fourth century.
Saint Cyril of Jerusalem
Approaching therefore, do not come forward with the palms of the hands outstretched nor with the fingers apart, but making the left [hand] a throne for the right since this hand is about to receive the King. Making the palm hollow, receive the Body of Christ, adding ‘Amen’. Then. carefully sanctifying the eyes by touching them with the holy Body, partake of it, ensuring that you do not mislay any of it. For if you mislay any, you would clearly suffer a loss, as it were, from one of your own limbs. Tell me, if anyone gave you gold-dust, would you not take hold of it with every possible care, ensuring that you do not mislay any of it or sustain any loss? So will you not be much more cautious to ensure that not a crumb falls away from that which is more precious than gold or precious stones?
“Then, after you have partaken of the Body of Christ, come forward only for the cup of the Blood. Do not stretch out your hands but bow low as if making an act of obeisance and a profound act of veneration. Say ‘Amen’. and sanctify yourself by partaking of Christ’s Blood also. While the moisture is still on your lips, touch them with your hands and sanctify your eyes, your forehead, and all your other sensory organs. Finally, wait for the prayer and give thanks to God, who has deemed you worthy of such mysteries.”
I suggest that you read this article, The Red Herring of Communion in the Hand
I also suggest that you read this document, Memoriale Domini, the Instruction on the Manner of Administering Holy Communion, this document is from The Congregation for Divine Worship on May 29, 1969.
I specifically point you to this part.
t the same time a full sharing in the celebration of the Eucharist, expressed through Sacramental communion, has recently stirred up in some places the desire to return to the practice by which the Eucharistic bread is placed in the hand of the faithful who communicates himself by putting it in his mouth.
It is true that, according to ancient usage, it was once permitted for the faithful to take the sacred food in their hands and themselves to place it in their mouths and even, in the earliest period, to carry the holy Sacrament with them from the place of celebration, especially in order to receive it as viaticum if they should have to suffer for the profession of the faith.
So here is a Magisteral document stating that reception of the Eucharist was an ancient usage in the Church.
One more time, this is a matter of discipline and the pope and the Church can change such things.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Angels Watchin:
The Mass is a Divine Liturgy. The Eucharist Rite of the Byzantine Tradtion is not the Divine Liturgy (or it is when one uses short hand) as the full name is the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or during Great Lent it is the Divine Liturgy of St, Basil the Great.
So the 7th Ecumenical Council was forbidding kneeling for everyone.
But, just as this, that is a matter of discipline and can (and does) change.
Angel, the 7th Ecumenical Council was addressing the Eucharistic Rite. It used the words “Divine Liturgy” to denote this.
The Mass is a Divine Liturgy. The Eucharist Rite of the Byzantine Tradtion is not the Divine Liturgy (or it is when one uses short hand) as the full name is the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or during Great Lent it is the Divine Liturgy of St, Basil the Great.
So the 7th Ecumenical Council was forbidding kneeling for everyone.
But, just as this, that is a matter of discipline and can (and does) change.
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ABalch
Guest
I am very curious about what you say here. I am not sure if by 'doughy" you mean that it is leavened, or if it is still unleavened bread. Can you give a description of the bread that is consecrated in the Mass you attend? I have heard a little lately about some abuses, such as leavened bread being used in Latin Rite, or bread that is sweetened with honey, etc. As I understand it, the bread consecrated must be unleavened, and made of wheat, without the addition of things such as honey, not that I am assuming that what is consecrated at the Mass you attend is either honeyed or leavened.
Pax vobiscum
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