Pregnancy deaths - who's to blame?

[Flavius_Aetius]

Here’s a question that was essentially the reason I stopped trying to change the minds of my pro-choice step-family.

In the case of a ten year old becoming pregnant by rape, is it the fault of the Church if said rape victim dies trying to give birth? After all there was a case like this in Brazil and all those handling the issue were excommunicated for the abortion that ended up occuring.

Now lets say the family in that case broke to the pressure of the Church and allowed the rape child to come to turn, only for it and thier child to die during delievery. It isn’t farfetched after all I’m sure we can all agree a 10 year old body is not built to deliever a child.

In this case is the blame shifted to the Church for allowing this? As someone Pro-life do you have to tell people who give you these senarios “Yes, they should try to deliever the baby even if the child rape victim dies in the attempt.”

I never thought taking the moral high ground would make you feel like a monster, but obviously my step-family made that all too clear to me. It’s senarios like these that make me want to say to Hell with the Pro-life party, let us kill each other in whatever way we can find, just leave me alone…

 

[Muze]

There is no reason to feel like a monster.

The pregnancy was caused by the rapist, and the death of the mother is also caused by the rapist.

 

[EasterJoy]

It sounds as if the OP thinks that the unborn child of the rapist ought to get the death penalty for her father’s crime. Either that, or the unborn child is considered fractionally less of a person than the 10 year old, however small that fraction might be.

Let us say that I am in a boat meant for one, in a storm in which the boat would immediately sink if there were not an adult in it to handle it. Were someone to throw a child in with me that threatens to sink the vessel, could I toss the child out? No, I would have to try to save us both. If in spite of my best efforts, either or both of us were to die, though, then the person who overburdened the vessel would be the murderer, not me.

 

[puzzleannie]

Here’s a question that was essentially the reason I stopped trying to change the minds of my pro-choice step-family.

In the case of a ten year old becoming pregnant by rape, is it the fault of the Church if said rape victim dies trying to give birth? After all there was a case like this in Brazil and all those handling the issue were excommunicated for the abortion that ended up occuring.
…

if a rape victim dies as a consequence of the rape, including complications of any resulting pregancy, the rapist is to blame.

In most accidents of pregnancy including death of the mother or child, unless some deliberate action is taken to bring about those death, no one is at fault. Not the patient, not the doctor, not the priest who may offer spiritual advice. It is a fact of nature.

the fact that people who adopt the idiotic argument advanced in OP conveniently disregard is the harmful effects, including maternal death, inherent in abortion itself, and the younger the mother, the more potential harm. Whose fault would it be if she died as a result of the abortion, was rendered infertile or other gross complications, to turn your own question back on you?

the other fact you ignore is that to impose abortion on rape victims extends the violence, and makes the child who is killed a convicted felon and subject to capital punishment.

 

[JRKH]

“Blame”, - Guilt and punishment will be left ultimately to God. Why this desire to place blame?

As others have said, if there is blame to be placed then it is with the rapist in the first place, not the victim, not the baby (least of all the baby) and certainly not the church.

Life is precious, but is one innocent life more precious than another? Is the mother’s life more precious than the baby’s? It is easy to say - protect the life of the mother, the person we know and love, rather than the child we have never met, but is it right?

People die. It is part of our Journey toward eternity. When and by what means is less important how we die…
Do we die well - in grace - with out eyes fixed on out Redeemer - upholding and promoting the Kingdom of God?
Or do we die grovelling in the mud of worldly matters, clinging to this earthly life even at the cost of another - innocent victim?

God knows the blame. God will ultimately issue Justice. We are better served turning our attention to Love.

Peace
James

 

[SecretGarden]

I would ask where is the Medical system in this situation? If a ten year old is pregnant regardless of how it happened, surely the pregnancy would be followed by a OBGYN (doctor) who would decide when to deliver the baby.

As a general rule if a woman is pregnant and her life is at risk, doctors will keep the baby inside the womb as long as possible and then deliver the baby even if the chances of it’s survival are low. The Church is very clear when it comes to the mother’s life. The mother must come first. Ideally you want both to survive. Unfortunately sometimes it doesn’t happen or mothers will decide to give up their life to save their baby.

You want to lay blame: blame it on the medical system if the child dies because they should be following the child’s pregnancy. The parents have the right to make decisions yet if their decisions are threatening the life of the child, the medical system has the right to take temporary guardianship of the child until the child’s life is no longer at risk. This happens alot with Jehovah Witnesses because they do not allow blood products.

This is where bioethics becomes gray because a ten year old’s body isn’t created to support life and yet if there is life inside what does one do? Both sides will argue their points but when a ten year old’s life is at risk, regardless of the ramifications it’s a tough call to make.

 

[bhall0689]

I’m sorry, but this is where I draw the line. We are talking about a CHILD here. I can’t believe someone here said that “People die. When and by what means is less important.” This little girl was 10 years old. Sometimes I think people are so eager to jump on the bandwagon behind the pro-life cause that they forget to exercise compassion and humility towards those affected by the painful, physical reminder that a pregnancy resulting from rape will bring.

A 10 year old is too young to understand rape, child birth, child-rearing. Her body and her mind are completely unequipped for the traumatic physical and mental experience of childbirth.

And even if she does physically survive childbirth, what of her MENTAL health? Is that not just as important if not more important than her physical health?

Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t abortions allowed by the Church only if delivering the child to term will present a serious threat to the mother and/or baby’s health? Wouldn’t a 10 year-old rape victim fall under this category?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’m sorry, but this is where I draw the line. We are talking about a CHILD here. I can’t believe someone here said that “People die. When and by what means is less important.” This little girl was 10 years old. Sometimes I think people are so eager to jump on the bandwagon behind the pro-life cause that they forget to exercise compassion and humility towards those affected by the painful, physical reminder that a pregnancy resulting from rape will bring.

A 10 year old is too young to understand rape, child birth, child-rearing. Her body and her mind are completely unequipped for the traumatic physical and mental experience of childbirth.

And even if she does physically survive childbirth, what of her MENTAL health? Is that not just as important if not more important than her physical health?

Yes what of her mental health? Is an abortion going to act like a time machine and bring her back to the day before the rape?

No. The child will still need to deal with the fact that some beast raped her and impregnated her, and that some other people trying to be helpful caused her to accept killing a baby.

Biologically if a girl is old enough to conceive, she is also old enough to give birth. If the pregnancy is difficult on her or causes her grave biological danger (similarly if an adult woman faced similar danger) a premature birth could save the child while at the same time saving the baby.

By the way, a few years ago my son had surgery at a Children’s hospital. The security guard told us of an 11 year old girl brought in that day complaining of stomach pains. Her mother thought it was her appendix. After a brief examination, it was realized she was in labor, and they rushed her from the pediatric section to the the labor and delivery section.

She gave birth. No one died,

 

[JRKH]

I’m sorry, but this is where I draw the line. We are talking about a CHILD here. I can’t believe someone here said that “People die. When and by what means is less important.” This little girl was 10 years old.

And the Baby is some weeks/months old - measured from conception…Which is more important? Does the child, who did not ask to be conceived, deserve a chance less than the mother?

The OP asked the question of who to blame…To me this is wrong thinking when it comes to the issue of abortion…It is worldly thinking that dismisses the sin of the alternatives.
As Christians, as Catholics, we should be thinking first and foremost in spiritual terms of eternity and making temporal decisions based on the eternal view. To do otherwise is to be shortsighted and fall into an abyss.

Yes I said all people die - because it’s true. Jesus asks us, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his eternal soul? I ask, similarly, what does it profit a man to gain a few years on this earth if he loses his soul doing it.

Sometimes I think people are so eager to jump on the bandwagon behind the pro-life cause that they forget to exercise compassion and humility towards those affected by the painful, physical reminder that a pregnancy resulting from rape will bring.

With or without an abortion, this child WILL remember being raped.
Should she also be encumbered with the knowledge that her child was murdered in the name of “compassion”?

A 10 year old is too young to understand rape, child birth, child-rearing. Her body and her mind are completely unequipped for the traumatic physical and mental experience of childbirth.

I find this to be an interesting comment…While I do not dismiss the psychological aspects of the matter, to say that her body is “completely unequipped for the traumatic physical” experience of childbirth seems wrong. After all her body WAS involved in the conception. It was her egg that was fertilized. Perhaps there are aspects about this I do not know but it appears that she had hit puberty…

And even if she does physically survive childbirth, what of her MENTAL health? Is that not just as important if not more important than her physical health?

If she has a loving caring and supportive family there is no reason why her mental health should suffer. She has already undergone a horrific experience…Why add another to it?

This is simply another example of poor short term worldly thinking. Kill one innocent victim in order to (presumably) help anther innocent victim.

Consider.
The 10 yo has been raped - Horrific traumatic - done deal - in her memory banks.
It’s discovered that she is pregnant. another bit of traumatic news - Also a done deal - in her memory banks.
The choice now is between one of two additional traumatic options. Abortion - killing her child, or carrying the child to term if possible (under close doctor supervision).
Either choice is traumatic. Either will enter her memory bank along with the rape and teh pregnancy…
Loving Family and Mental health professionals can help with either one…HOWEVER

One is sinful and the other is not.
One commits murder and the other does not.
Which is more “compassionate”

Pick one

Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t abortions allowed by the Church only if delivering the child to term will present a serious threat to the mother and/or baby’s health? Wouldn’t a 10 year-old rape victim fall under this category?

I do not believe this is correct, but I will allow others to address this more specifically.

Peace
James

 

[bhall0689]

Mary:

It’s good that no one died, but that is often not the case with children impregnated at a young age. We both agree that the rape and impregnation were obviously very traumatic experiences for anyone to experience, especially a very young child. What we don’t both agree on is whether or not it would be safe for a 10 year-old child to give birth, and whether an abortion or carrying the child to term and delivering would be more traumatic to her physical and mental well-being.

I know for a fact that a child’s body is not finished physically developing at 10 years-old whether or not she is physically able to conceive or not. She has not developed the brain capacity to understand what is physically happening to her body, she cannot comprehend what to possibly expect, and she has not developed the physical features that come in late puberty that allow women to more easily give birth.

Biologically if a girl is old enough to conceive, she is also old enough to give birth.

Can you provide medical statistics from a non-biased site to back this up?

Also, can someone please answer my question about abortion being allowed in the face of grave medical danger?

 

[bhall0689]

I guess that’s where we differ - while I consider myself pro-life with some exceptions, I’m not sure at all that I believe that life begins at the literal moment of conception, and I do support abortion in the instance of rape, especially child rape. But I’m also one of those “fallen” Catholic types, with those contentions just being a couple in a list of many that drove me from the Church.

Yes I said all people die - because it’s true. Jesus asks us, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his eternal soul? I ask, similarly, what does it profit a man to gain a few years on this earth if he loses his soul doing it.

I’m sorry, but this reasoning disturbs me. We are not talking about a MAN here, we are talking about a 10 year-old child. Jesus does not ask us to sacrifice our precious children’s lives for him. Let the little girl be a little girl!

Also, you say if she has a loving and supportive family then her mental health will not suffer. Do you have statistics to back this up? Because I have a LARGE number of personal anecdotes I could tell you that suggest otherwise, if all we are relying on his personal opinion and heresy.

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m
A 10 year old is too young to understand rape, child birth, child-rearing. Her body and her mind are completely unequipped for the traumatic physical and mental experience of childbirth.

?

again your compassion is misplaced because it assumes, without examining the truth of the assumption that the violent assault and consequences that is abortion is somehow preferable, kinder, easier than any alternative. It assumes, wrongly, that abortion is always benign and has no after effects. and is therefore less traumatic than childbirth, pregnancy, or the rape itself. get a reality check before your knees jerk.

 

[MaryTeresa2]

Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t abortions allowed by the Church only if delivering the child to term will present a serious threat to the mother and/or baby’s health? Wouldn’t a 10 year-old rape victim fall under this category?

Incorrect. Who would judge pregnancies by ‘serious threat’ to mother/baby? Doctors? What if they disagree? Who plays ‘God’ then? Abortion is abortion, the Church does not allow abortion. God’s Will is to be trusted in all situations, that’s the bottom line. I had very ‘high risk’ pregnancies, had I gone for ‘statistics’ etc., I’d not have the kids/grandkids I have today. We can propose all sorts of ‘what if’ scenarios, but the bottom line is God’s Will be done, even when someone dies. Do you not believe God has His eye on all things and His hand in all things? We trust God, no matter the outcome, or if we prefer it or not.

 

[bhall0689]

Yes what of her mental health? Is an abortion going to act like a time machine and bring her back to the day before the rape?

I’d also like to remind everyone that not all women who receive abortions find the experience traumatic and guilt-ridden. Many women feel a profound sense of relief afterwards. Some women don’t. Similarly, not all women who give birth find the experience beautiful, uplifting, and empowering. Some find it difficult, traumatic, terrifying, and excruciatingly painful.

 

[JRKH]

I guess that’s where we differ - while I consider myself pro-life with some exceptions, I’m not sure at all that I believe that life begins at the literal moment of conception, and I do support abortion in the instance of rape, especially child rape. But I’m also one of those “fallen” Catholic types, with those contentions just being a couple in a list of many that drove me from the Church.

If sorry to find that you have left the Church. I hope and pray that someday you will, as I have, find you r way back home.

I’m sorry, but this reasoning disturbs me. We are not talking about a MAN here, we are talking about a 10 year-old child. Jesus does not ask us to sacrifice our precious children’s lives for him. Let the little girl be a little girl!

I would be happy to let a little girl be a little girl…Too bad that the person who committed the rape did not do likewise…
You see this is the problem. There seems to be a desire to turn back the clock…
It can’t be done. This child’s world was shattered at the moment of the rape. How shattered depends to a degree on how the rape occurred etc. Aborting the child will not turn back the clock to some pre-rape innocence and mental health. It just doesn’t happen. It’s already in her memory.
ON a positive note an abortion would allow the mental health people and the family to move forward a few months sooner than if the child is carried to term, but that is all.
On the negative side, this 10 year old is being raised Catholic and will learn that the abortion is considered wrong by the Church…More guilt for this child to deal with.

No - abortion is not the solution.

Also, you say if she has a loving and supportive family then her mental health will not suffer. Do you have statistics to back this up? Because I have a LARGE number of personal anecdotes I could tell you that suggest otherwise, if all we are relying on his personal opinion and heresy.

No I don’t have statistics…Though it is logical that a supportive family is a blessing. She would not be “blamed”, the pregnancy would be handled “matter of factly” and decisions made calmly and properly as to the disposition of the child (adoption etc). A supportive family is ALWAYS helpful to any therapist working with children.
And when I say supportive, I mean ones who are willing to talk about the matters. Too often people will “accept” but then “clam up”. Which can be “not-good”

Peace
James

 

[bhall0689]

Incorrect. Who would judge pregnancies by ‘serious threat’ to mother/baby? Doctors? What if they disagree? Who plays ‘God’ then? Abortion is abortion, the Church does not allow abortion. God’s Will is to be trusted in all situations, that’s the bottom line. I had very ‘high risk’ pregnancies, had I gone for ‘statistics’ etc., I’d not have the kids/grandkids I have today. We can propose all sorts of ‘what if’ scenarios, but the bottom line is God’s Will be done, even when someone dies. Do you not believe God has His eye on all things and His hand in all things? We trust God, no matter the outcome, or if we prefer it or not.

Your argument smacks of the same arguments I hear from the Fundamentalists who refuse medical treatment in favor of “praying away” the illness instead of seeking medical advice. I’m just saying, it’s a slippery slope.

A major reason that I am vehemently opposed to the Church’s (apparent?) restrictions on abortion even in times of grave medical peril/rape is that it seems to disproportionately affect women as opposed to men. It’s WRONG to condemn a woman suffering medical complications from a pregnancy resulting from rape to her deathbed because “Thy will be done.” Unfortunately, some Fundamentalists would have abortion outlawed in all cases, including rape and medical danger, and ALL women, not just Christian women would have to either succumb to this fate or suffer a back-alley abortion.

Thank God for separation of Church and State and democracy!

 

[EasterJoy]

…I’m not sure at all that I believe that life begins at the literal moment of conception…

OK, well, that explains why you don’t see anything criminal about killing one human being outright in order to prevent the possibility of health problems or the risk of death in a second human being. How do you decide when a person is a person, though?

What do you do when the 10 year old’s pregnancy is not discovered until her unborn child is or even might be viable? Have the risks to her mental or physical health lessened? No. What has changed is how willing you are to see that her child is also innocent, vulnerable and worthy of protection.

 

[bhall0689]

You see this is the problem. There seems to be a desire to turn back the clock…
It can’t be done. This child’s world was shattered at the moment of the rape. How shattered depends to a degree on how the rape occurred etc.

You misunderstand my point. The goal is not to make her forget the rape - an impossible though goal-worthy task, but to minimize the danger it will cause this little girl physically.

Also, you are very ignorant if you think “how shattered” this little girl’s world will be depends on how the rape occurred. Rape is one of the most traumatizing experiences a woman can every experience, and I would -NEVER- wish it upon another woman. It doesn’t matter HOW it physically occurred. The pain of rape is mental.

 

[MaryTeresa2]

I’d also like to remind everyone that not all women who receive abortions find the experience traumatic and guilt-ridden. Many women feel a profound sense of relief afterwards. Some women don’t. Similarly, not all women who give birth find the experience beautiful, uplifting, and empowering. Some find it difficult, traumatic, terrifying, and excruciatingly painful.

How we ‘feel’ about something is not the criterion for making it moral or not.

The OP asked who is to blame for pregnancy deaths… in this case if either the mother or child dies, it’s the rapist who caused the initial act.

Aborting the unborn only makes another set of persons culpable. Who can say ahead of time if one or the other will die? If you chose abortion, surely at least one will die. This can not be a better solution to what has already happened.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’d also like to remind everyone that not all women who receive abortions find the experience traumatic and guilt-ridden. Many women feel a profound sense of relief afterwards. Some women don’t. Similarly, not all women who give birth find the experience beautiful, uplifting, and empowering. Some find it difficult, traumatic, terrifying, and excruciatingly painful.

You are right that moral law is not connected to how people feel about their actions or the results. Prison is full of people who were happy to have accomplished their crimes, and who even after incarceration regretted only that they had been caught. Likewise, many people who were forced to call the police on a loved one’s crimes or who failed at some moral quest for which they objectively bear no blame are guilt-ridden for many years afterward.

John Wilkes Booth felt morally justified and emotionally exhilarated at assassinating Lincoln. Lots of people thought him a hero. The same goes for Osama bin Laden. He was thrilled at seeing the Twin Towers go down and the Pentagon in flames, convinced he had struck a blow in God’s favor.

So you are correct: how a woman or those who procure it for her feel about her abortion is not what makes it right or wrong.