Preist wrong? Pornography etc

[PaladinSword]

So I have a regular confessor and I was under the impression that masturbation and pornography are grievous matters and potential mortal sins and should be confessed before receiving the Eucharist. Now a friend in the KofC suggested I call a different priest and talk to him and he says that the above offenses are not mortal sins and that I should thank God for sexuality and mentioned St Augustine’s sexual escapades. I always thought the saint repented of those ways when he converted. My heart was telling me that this new priest was wrong and leading me astray. I’ve read the catechism and know what it says about these vices. I know there is a varying degree of culpability which I have yet to really discuss with my confessor. I’ve been telling myself that it is a potentially mortal sin which must be confessed. I have read on other Catholic websites that even if these things are committed not to abstain from the Eucharist, which i thought was wrong as well. What is it with all this stuff going on in the Church? Any thoughts?

 

[Zosimus41]

So I have a regular confessor and I was under the impression that masturbation and pornography are grievous matters and potential mortal sins and should be confessed before receiving the Eucharist. Now a friend in the KofC suggested I call a different priest and talk to him and he says that the above offenses are not mortal sins and that I should thank God for sexuality and mentioned St Augustine’s sexual escapades. I always thought the saint repented of those ways when he converted. My heart was telling me that this new priest was wrong and leading me astray. I’ve read the catechism and know what it says about these vices. I know there is a varying degree of culpability which I have yet to really discuss with my confessor. I’ve been telling myself that it is a potentially mortal sin which must be confessed. I have read on other Catholic websites that even if these things are committed not to abstain from the Eucharist, which i thought was wrong as well. What is it with all this stuff going on in the Church? Any thoughts?

Heres what the catechesis stats

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

 

[Trishie]

Sins against the 6th Commandment of God,
the Catechism of the Catholic Church
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm
Offenses against chastity

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

 

[RonF]

So I have a regular confessor and I was under the impression that masturbation and pornography are grievous matters and potential mortal sins and should be confessed before receiving the Eucharist. Now a friend in the KofC suggested I call a different priest and talk to him and he says that the above offenses are not mortal sins and that I should thank God for sexuality and mentioned St Augustine’s sexual escapades. I always thought the saint repented of those ways when he converted. My heart was telling me that this new priest was wrong and leading me astray. I’ve read the catechism and know what it says about these vices. I know there is a varying degree of culpability which I have yet to really discuss with my confessor. I’ve been telling myself that it is a potentially mortal sin which must be confessed. I have read on other Catholic websites that even if these things are committed not to abstain from the Eucharist, which i thought was wrong as well. What is it with all this stuff going on in the Church? Any thoughts?

I suppose it is possible to “shop around” and find a priest (probably an older one under the influence of the “spirit” of Vatican II, as opposed to the actual Vatican II) who feels entitled to ignore Church teaching as it is laid out in the Catechism. There are priests as well as laity who believe they are entitled to exercise their private judgement to ignore or disobey Church teaching whenever they disagree with it, particularly when that teaching is contradicted by the mores and practices of the modern, secular world.

As Trishie and others have written - Church teaching is clear on this subject. As the Catechism points out, while there may be varying degrees of culpability based on a number of factors, the act itself is wrong and sinful, period. Your regular confessor is correct and I hope you are not swayed by your KC friend and others who feel that Church teaching is only to be obeyed when you agree with it. (Meaning you only have to obey your own thoughts and conscience. In which case, why bother with the Church at all?)

 

[PeterJohn]

I’ve heard it said that shopping around for a priest that doesn’t consider your sins, to be sins, is not shopping for a new confessor, but shopping for a new God. Consumerism at its worst.
St Augustine says “If you believe what you want from the gospels, that’s not believing in God, that’s believing in yourself”. The Church teaches from the bible, not the church teaches you to teach yourself from the bible.

 

[JRKH]

So I have a regular confessor and I was under the impression that masturbation and pornography are grievous matters and potential mortal sins and should be confessed before receiving the Eucharist. Now a friend in the KofC suggested I call a different priest and talk to him and he says that the above offenses are not mortal sins and that I should thank God for sexuality and mentioned St Augustine’s sexual escapades. I always thought the saint repented of those ways when he converted. My heart was telling me that this new priest was wrong and leading me astray. I’ve read the catechism and know what it says about these vices. I know there is a varying degree of culpability which I have yet to really discuss with my confessor. I’ve been telling myself that it is a potentially mortal sin which must be confessed. I have read on other Catholic websites that even if these things are committed not to abstain from the Eucharist, which i thought was wrong as well. What is it with all this stuff going on in the Church? Any thoughts?

It is very difficult to give any advice on this matter and certainly we cannot judge the advice given you by the other priest since we have next to no information on your discussion with him. About the best anyone can do is to do as others have already done and point you to the Catechism.

You ask - “What is it with all this stuff going on in the Church?” but I’m not sure what “stuff” you are referring to…

My suggestion is that you continue with the confessor you have and begin asking him about the matters of “culpability”. Answers to these matters might help clear some things up.

Peace
James

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’ve heard it said that shopping around for a priest that doesn’t consider your sins, to be sins, is not shopping for a new confessor, but shopping for a new God. Consumerism at its worst.

Obviously, sometimes priests are in dispute if not flat wrong on some teachings here. Why would going a different confessor be “shopping for a new God?” What if it had been the other way around and the OP had said, “my confessor doesn’t think masturbation is grave matter so I’m thinking I’ll go to another confessor,” would that be shopping for a new God?

But let’s get back to some basics. Why is it that two confessors are saying something different about what is not only church teaching, but obviously very common? Is confessing to one of them invalid? Why do we even have ordained confessors if they can’t agree among themselves what is and is not a sin? Isn’t this a quality control problem?

Alan

 

[Delaine75]

I’ve heard it said that shopping around for a priest that doesn’t consider your sins, to be sins, is not shopping for a new confessor, but shopping for a new God. Consumerism at its worst.
St Augustine says “If you believe what you want from the gospels, that’s not believing in God, that’s believing in yourself”. The Church teaches from the bible, not the church teaches you to teach yourself from the bible.

Excellent response.

 

[aicirt]

So I have a regular confessor and I was under the impression that masturbation and pornography are grievous matters and potential mortal sins and should be confessed before receiving the Eucharist. Now a friend in the KofC suggested I call a different priest and talk to him and he says that the above offenses are not mortal sins and that I should thank God for sexuality and mentioned St Augustine’s sexual escapades. I always thought the saint repented of those ways when he converted. My heart was telling me that this new priest was wrong and leading me astray. I’ve read the catechism and know what it says about these vices. I know there is a varying degree of culpability which I have yet to really discuss with my confessor. I’ve been telling myself that it is a potentially mortal sin which must be confessed. I have read on other Catholic websites that even if these things are committed not to abstain from the Eucharist, which i thought was wrong as well. What is it with all this stuff going on in the Church? Any thoughts?

Return to your original confessor. Do mention the above to him while you are there. There’s a real problem when a lay person can discern what’s a sin and what is not and the priest can’t. And you are right, he is leading people astray. This is very sad.

 

[JRKH]

But let’s get back to some basics. Why is it that two confessors are saying something different about what is not only church teaching, but obviously very common? Is confessing to one of them invalid? Why do we even have ordained confessors if they can’t agree among themselves what is and is not a sin? Isn’t this a quality control problem?

Alan

The biggest problem, from a QC standpoint is that the Church and her teachings are New covenant and not Old Covenant in structure and application. What do I mean by that? Simply this. Under the Old covenant, especially as practiced at the time of Jesus, things were very “cut and dry”, very “legalistic” etc. such systems are more easily applies equally across the board than a system that reduces everything down to “Love”.

Add to this the need to deal with each person, each believer as an individual who is at a a different point within their journey. A person with individual needs, concerns, faults and strengths. A person who might function well under stern and firm guidance or a person who requires a more gentle, fatherly approach.

Consider as an analogy, the person who seeks to overcome some addiction in the world - to alcohol, drugs, or overeating. They join a 12 step program. They admit their failings they seek to do better. The stumble and fall back, they pick themselves up and start again…All the while receiving Love from their fellow travelers and councilors. Encouragement and joy at success. Sorrow and encouragement - but never condemnation - over their failures.

In the case of the OP I honestly cannot say that the one priest is more or less right than the other. I simply do not have sufficient information. It may be that one priest uses one approach and the other priest another. The penitent, acting in truth, in contrition, and in an honest spirit and desire to overcome sin, must seek through all of these things for the methods etc that are most useful to him.

Peace
James

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Excellent response.

So if you also hold that shopping for a confessor is wrong when looking for one less strict, then is it also wrong to look for one more strict? For one who gives advice or for one who doesn’t?

If these two priests were switched around and the regular confessor was the more “liberal” one, would you not tell the OP to go find a new confessor?

So unless you are saying that shopping for a new confessor is always wrong and always reveals wrong motives, then you really should let go of the “shopping for a new God” thing. That’s just bumper sticker Catholicism. Or is it?

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Add to this the need to deal with each person, each believer as an individual who is at a a different point within their journey. A person with individual needs, concerns, faults and strengths. A person who might function well under stern and firm guidance or a person who requires a more gentle, fatherly approach.

Yes, and I think it’s perfectly fine for people to “shop” confessors until they find one they like. Goodness gracious we have preferences over which confessor we use and that’s tantamount to denying God? I think we have some paranoia here.

I agree with you that there is not enough information to either confirm or second-guess the OP’s original confessor.

Alan

 

[JRKH]

So if you also hold that shopping for a confessor is wrong when looking for one less strict, then is it also wrong to look for one more strict? For one who gives advice or for one who doesn’t?

If these two priests were switched around and the regular confessor was the more “liberal” one, would you not tell the OP to go find a new confessor?

So unless you are saying that shopping for a new confessor is always wrong and always reveals wrong motives, then you really should let go of the “shopping for a new God” thing. That’s just bumper sticker Catholicism. Or is it?

Alan

Interesting and provocative…:compcoff:

Peace
James

 

[nagyszakall]

So I have a regular confessor

if it works out for you, keep him. Regular is good.

and I was under the impression that masturbation and pornography are grievous matters and potential mortal sins and should be confessed before receiving the Eucharist.

yes indeed, that is grave matter and you never go wrong confessing it before receiving communion.

Now a friend in the KofC suggested I call a different priest and talk to him and he says that the above offenses are not mortal sins and that I should thank God for sexuality and mentioned St Augustine’s sexual escapades.

you can confess to whatever priest you want, but if it is in order to justify what you know is wrong, obviously, you shouldn’t “shop around”.
Whether a sin is mortal, will depend on the subjective aspect besides being grave matter. Therefore, the only one who can know that with moral certainty is God and you, the subject. The priest may try to help you in that, but he could be wrong. You know whether you committed those sins with full knowledge and deliberate intent or not. And yes, you should thank God for your sexuality, and should live it chastely.

My heart was telling me that this new priest was wrong and leading me astray.

Your heart was probably right.

I’ve read the catechism and know what it says about these vices. I know there is a varying degree of culpability which I have yet to really discuss with my confessor. I’ve been telling myself that it is a potentially mortal sin which must be confessed.

Again, your confessor can help, but only you are the one who can know with certainty.

I have read on other Catholic websites that even if these things are committed not to abstain from the Eucharist

Abstain? on the contrary, receive the Eucharist frequently, only you should confess before if you have mortal sin on you conscience. God loves sinners and forgives them.

What is it with all this stuff going on in the Church? Any thoughts?

The Church has many members who err (you being one of them). If you find that a priest is giving you wrong directions, don’t confess to him any more (unless it is an emergency) and pray for him. Look for a holy man as your spiritual director. There are many of those out there also. Always ask the Holy Spirit to give you the gift of discernment. He will do it for you.

 

[nagyszakall]

Why is it that two confessors are saying something different about what is not only church teaching, but obviously very common? Is confessing to one of them invalid? Why do we even have ordained confessors if they can’t agree among themselves what is and is not a sin? Isn’t this a quality control problem?

You see, the problem is complicated because sins are human acts and therefore have objective and subjective aspects.

Objective part is the one that should be easy to decide on (e.g. masturbation is grave matter [a priest or any Catholic denying that is just wrong]).

But then, there is the subjective part, which you can’t really know for another person unless you are God. For that part, the priest is there to help, but he can’t give you ready packaged answers whether your action was a sin and is mortal or not. He can only work with what you give him, and yes, he can be mistaken.

But, thank God, the validity of the sacrament does not depend on the priest.

Quality control problem? Yes, we have it. The formation of priests is not as good as it should be in many places. We are working on it though. And you should do your part in that work also (depending on your position there could be different things you can do, but you must certainly pray for priests and seminarians, and yes, for more vocations [and if you have male and single children, you should ask God to call at least one of them to become a priest. Unless you do that, your prayer for vocations is in danger of being a farce.]).

 

[aicirt]

).

How is it being worked on? I think the proof is in the pudding. Not many are showing up for confession but everyone in church receives Communion. Somewhere over many decades the laity has gotten the word that not everything is a sin. Priests have puplits. Start talking about sin. Put the commandements in the Sunday bulletin and give an explanation of what constitutes a sin agains each.

 

[saveusfromhell]

Interesting and provocative…:compcoff:

Peace
James

the perfect reply

 

[AlanFromWichita]

But, thank God, the validity of the sacrament does not depend on the priest.

Thank you. I understand just what you mean about the subjective part. Honestly, at some point, I think there needs to be human judgment at times and I’m not afraid of having it vary from priest to priest. I’m also not afraid of changing to a different confessor. Personally I don’t mind going to the same or different one; I’ve also started going face to face – never thought I would but now it’s my first choice. I think face to face helps them give you guidance they may notice that they wouldn’t have gotten from just the voice and no body language or eye contact.

As long as I’m selling face to face, here’s another thing. It even helps me to have a priest look at me and me at him when I’m confessing or just confessed, to help me learn how one goes about holding one’s chin up and makes it easier for me to go back out and look other people in the eye.

And you should do your part in that work also (depending on your position there could be different things you can do, but you must certainly pray for priests and seminarians, and yes, for more vocations [and if you have male and single children, you should ask God to call at least one of them to become a priest. Unless you do that, your prayer for vocations is in danger of being a farce.]).

I do get a chance to have a discussion with a particular seminarian and his parents, after Mass every week. I play music (piano/organ) for that Mass, and his parents have both sung with me on many occasions (though at my Mass they don’t cantor for me; my daughter does). I’m encouraged by how charged up he is about mysticism and theology both – and these young seminarians are all on facebook of course so we get to keep in touch and encourage them that way.

My oldest son was considering priesthood, but I think he wants children too much so we haven’t heard the last word. Meanwhile he was just elected the youngest Grand Knight in our Knights of Columbus chapter at age 25, and our pastor is ecstatic because Matt will help him do all the things the previous leadership wouldn’t. He is going to Rome with a group our bishop is taking this fall. So I never know. Honestly, I think he wants children, and if he meets the right woman he may find his vocation to be that – but I just listen and discuss because it is for him to discern. Meanwhile, he also he cantors and lectors – or sometimes both – at Mass, more than one per weekend at times.

I have five younger children, but he’s the closest to the Church now.

Alan

 

[Bookcat]

Yes they are grave (mortal) sins…see the Catechism etc.

 

[cmscms]

Now a friend in the KofC suggested I call a different priest and talk to him and he says that the above offenses are not mortal sins and that I should thank God for sexuality

Just curious but what are this friends qualifications?. I can’t help but think perhaps your desire to lead a holy life is tweaking his conscious and he wants to lead you astray to relieve his guilt