Preistly Ceibacy

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I, as a Latin Catholic, have to say this. Please, fellow Latins, LEARN ABOUT YOUR EASTERN CATHOLIC BRETHREN! These are Catholics just like us; they follow the traditions of the Orthodox East, but are Catholics in Communion with Rome. If you love priestly celibacy for the Latin Church, then say the Latin Church should not change… do not say all Catholic Priests. I’ve seen posts about not giving Eastern Catholic infants Holy Communion even though they already possess that Holy Mystery (Sacrament).
I know many are ignorant of Eastern Catholicism, so I am writing this so Latins will learn. Please study their faith.
 
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CatholicCid:
Don’t you mean 73 correct votes?
No!
 
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otm:
I know too many people who are not liberal who feel that we should be able to ordain married men. Unless you are labeling anyone liberal who has this opinion, at which point we have a major disagreement as to what liberal means.
The edit time finished before I could add this. I am sure that all would agree that this forum is predominately “conservative” and the vote above (albeit small) indicates fairley accurately I think the conservative viewpoint which is strongly in favour of a celibate priesthood. I have found in my experience (which is probably just as broad as yours) that conservatives do favour a celibate priesthood. Unless you can show me a survey which supports your implied contention that many “non-liberals” (I assume you mean conservatives) support a married priesthood I will stand by my statement.
 
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BillyT92679:
I, as a Latin Catholic, have to say this. Please, fellow Latins, LEARN ABOUT YOUR EASTERN CATHOLIC BRETHREN! These are Catholics just like us; they follow the traditions of the Orthodox East, but are Catholics in Communion with Rome. If you love priestly celibacy for the Latin Church, then say the Latin Church should not change… do not say all Catholic Priests. I’ve seen posts about not giving Eastern Catholic infants Holy Communion even though they already possess that Holy Mystery (Sacrament).
I know many are ignorant of Eastern Catholicism, so I am writing this so Latins will learn. Please study their faith.
I understand your concern, and I have indicated below that I respect the traditions of the Eastern Catholics. However I would add that in countries like the US and Australia, Latin Rite Catholics are what is meant in general by Catholics and it is therefore understandable that we do not always specify Latin Rite. I think there would be very few who would argue for a change in the discipline of the Eastern churches. Indeed the Church itself has allowed them to retain their rites. Because someone says the Church should retain a celibate priesthood does not mean that it should extend it to the Eastern rite churches.
 
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InnocentIII:
I understand your concern, and I have indicated below that I respect the traditions of the Eastern Catholics. However I would add that in countries like the US and Australia, Latin Rite Catholics are what is meant in general by Catholics and it is therefore understandable that we do not always specify Latin Rite. I think there would be very few who would argue for a change in the discipline of the Eastern churches. Indeed the Church itself has allowed them to retain their rites. Because someone says the Church should retain a celibate priesthood does not mean that it should extend it to the Eastern rite churches.
Yes I think you are correct that when people say Catholic here in the US they mean Latin Catholic but I would say that this is due to a lack of understanding of what the Church is. Most of those people think that the Latin Church is the Catholic Church, they do not know that the Church is actually made up of 22 separate sui iuris Churches.

This comes off as arogance sometimes. We Byzantine Catholics are Catholic and just because something is done a certain way in the Latin Church does not make that practice the right way nor does it make it universal. When our traditions differ, they are not inferrior nor wrong.
 
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ByzCath:
Yes I think you are correct that when people say Catholic here in the US they mean Latin Catholic but I would say that this is due to a lack of understanding of what the Church is. Most of those people think that the Latin Church is the Catholic Church, they do not know that the Church is actually made up of 22 separate sui iuris Churches.

This comes off as arogance sometimes. We Byzantine Catholics are Catholic and just because something is done a certain way in the Latin Church does not make that practice the right way nor does it make it universal. When our traditions differ, they are not inferrior nor wrong.
Agreed my friend. We have three Eastern Rite dioceses here and I have worhsipped in both Melkite and Maronite churches and found them often more reverent than many of our “new age” Latin parishes. I love their liturgies as I love that of my own rite. And I would no sooner change them than change my own. Regrettably others seem hell bent (apt term??) on doing just the latter. I suspect it is less arrogance than ignorance. But then sadly most Latins at least here do not come into much contact with our Eastern bretheren.
 
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ByzCath:
But then was he, when St Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Timothy he says…

1 Timothy 3

1 The saying is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task. 2 Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, 3 no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; 5 for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God’s church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil; 7 moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders, or he may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Hmmm…

The Church has always had a married and a celibate clergy, neither is superior.
ByzCath,

If you look at the full passage that you are quoting, it should be rather clear that St Paul is addressing the moral character of a bishop. If he is married, he shouldn’t have more than one wife, drink too much, be a poor father, etc. He’s not implying that a bishop must be married. That assertion would mean that an unmarried bishop would not be doing his job well. Futhermore, what if the bishop didn’t have childen? How could he keep them submissive?

The passage that you quoted is often used in support of a married priesthood, but read in context it just doesn’t hold up. On the other hand, 1 Corinthians 7, 8-9,32-40 and Matthew 19:10-12 clearly illustrate the benefits of the gift of celibacy. Those passages also point out that not everyone has that gift.

Currently, celibacy is the discipline for the Roman rite. This could change and it won’t be the end of the world. I just wanted to point the value of celibacy and it’s scriptural basis.

God Bless,
Gary
 
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gez722:
ByzCath,

If you look at the full passage that you are quoting, it should be rather clear that St Paul is addressing the moral character of a bishop. If he is married, he shouldn’t have more than one wife, drink too much, be a poor father, etc. He’s not implying that a bishop must be married. That assertion would mean that an unmarried bishop would not be doing his job well. Futhermore, what if the bishop didn’t have childen? How could he keep them submissive?

The passage that you quoted is often used in support of a married priesthood, but read in context it just doesn’t hold up. On the other hand, 1 Corinthians 7, 8-9,32-40 and Matthew 19:10-12 clearly illustrate the benefits of the gift of celibacy. Those passages also point out that not everyone has that gift.

Currently, celibacy is the discipline for the Roman rite. This could change and it won’t be the end of the world. I just wanted to point the value of celibacy and it’s scriptural basis.

God Bless,
Gary
You are making a mistake that I am using this scripture to say that priests must be married. I am doing no such thing.

This scritpure does support the idea of a married priesthood as if there was no such thing then this scritpure would not exist.

What you appeared to be doing with the scripture your posted was to say that the celibate priesthood is the only way, which is what that scriputre you used is used for by many.

The married priesthood is just as ancient a practice as the celibate priesthood is.

The married priesthood is scriptural.

Of all the apostles, we know for a fact that one of them was married, the rest we do not know.
 
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otm:
Some religious have been celibate. Some have been married.

Sex has nothing to do with the issue. The issue is about who is called to the Sacrament of Holy Orders. And the fact that someone is married does not mean that he does not have a call to the priesthood.
I can appreciate the difference in the Eastern and Roman traditions. I still believe however that the primary issue is indeed sexual vs married and unmarried clergy. The question had to do with celibacy. I don’t recall that it had anything at all to do with being married or unmarried. But since the issue of marriage came up I will give my view on it.

Since the Roman Rite does not have married priests, the Priests are supposed to remain celibate, as are religious brothers and sisters. When and if Rome changes the policy, for lack of a better word, then Married priests will be OK.

However, such a policy change could have extremely wide ranging and possibly catestrophic effects. For instance, the stipend that Priests currently receive would have to be increased greatly, housing would have to be provided or the pay increased even more. Family concerns would quite naturally occupy a lot of the Priests time. Since the Priest now has two distinct loyalties, one to the Church and the other to his family, which will take priority? How about health care for the family, education etc. True these concern everybody else, but Priests aren’t just everybody else either.

And yes, Protestant churches do it all the time, but since they are basically set up as independent churches under an umbrella, each Church can pay its’ own pastor. Each church itself, through its’ board of trustees or whatever, solicits applications, interviews, selects and hires its’ pastor. That is of course not true for the pastor who sets up his own church. The living expenses of the pastor and his family if there is one is then paid by the individual church. Someting like that arrangement might work for married Clergy in the Roman Catholic Church as well. However ,that would probably entail separating the individual Church from the direct control of the Bishop, at least as far as finances and hiring the Priests are concerned. And since the Bishop has no say in hiring his Priests his influence would be minimal at best. In essence, it would seem that this scenario could lead to difficulties with Apostolic Tradition, and would lead to the Roman Catholic Church to become a group of independent chuches.

I am not well versed in the eastern Churches, so if i am wrong please correct me. They don’t allow a man to marry once he has received Holy Orders, and their Bishops must be unmarried. So even the eastern Church has some reservations about the role of married men in the clergy. And I would have to imagine that the married men admitted to Holy Orders are very well screened indeed to determine if they can handle the l stress of maintaining a family in addition to ministering to a congregation.

No, I think the prohibition on married clergy is quite sensible at least for now. As far as the celibacy issue, which was the original question my opinion is the same.

Stay celibate.
 
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ByzCath:
You are making a mistake that I am using this scripture to say that priests must be married. I am doing no such thing.

This scritpure does support the idea of a married priesthood as if there was no such thing then this scritpure would not exist.

What you appeared to be doing with the scripture your posted was to say that the celibate priesthood is the only way, which is what that scriputre you used is used for by many.

The married priesthood is just as ancient a practice as the celibate priesthood is.

The married priesthood is scriptural.

Of all the apostles, we know for a fact that one of them was married, the rest we do not know.
 
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ByzCath:
You are making a mistake that I am using this scripture to say that priests must be married. I am doing no such thing.

This scritpure does support the idea of a married priesthood as if there was no such thing then this scritpure would not exist…
While this scripture passages confirms that there have been married priests, I disagree that it supports the idea of a married priesthood. It supports the idea that a bishop should be of good moral character, but not that a bishop must be married. As I stated in my earlier post, when you take the entire passage in context, it states that a bishop must be of good moral character.
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ByzCath:
What you appeared to be doing with the scripture your posted was to say that the celibate priesthood is the only way, which is what that scriputre you used is used for by many…
My mistake… I should have been clearer when I posted. My scripture quote was intended to illustrate that the gift of celibacy has a biblical foundation and that it was recommended by St. Paul. It’s not the “only way”, but I do feel that it makes the most sense.
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ByzCath:
The married priesthood is scriptural…
I still disagree. I would like someone to show me a Bible passage that endorses a married priesthood. There are passages that support marriage, but not a married priesthood. On the other hand, “An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided” (1 Corinthians 7:32-34) is a pretty good endorsement for a celibate priesthood. It doesn’t say that priests should not be married, but it certainly illustrates how celibacy benefits the priesthood.
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ByzCath:
Of all the apostles, we know for a fact that one of them was married, the rest we do not know.
Agreed. There is speculation that Peter may have been windowed which would explain why he (instead of his wife) was taking care of his mother in law.

Honestly, if the custom changes tomorrow and Roman rite priests would be allowed to get married, I wouldn’t be devasted. I just believe that a celibate priesthood makes the most sense.

God Bless,
Gary
 
wow, ok. ByzCath, I apologize. Apparently my knowledge of the faith was not as thourough as I initially thought coming into this forum. I the eye am no important than the hand, even as we have different functions that does not make its plight vain
originally posted by justme
Look to the Catechism. Try to learn and understand what the Church actually Teaches.
1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."70 Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to "the affairs of the Lord,"71 they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church’s minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.72
1580 In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities.73 Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.
 
It’s not a matter of trust, it’s a matter of right and wrong!
1 Timothy 3:1-5 NAB:
This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?
1 Timothy 4:1-4 NAB:
Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving,
Having a popular belief, opinion, rule, doctrine, etc… does not always mean it’s right!
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InnocentIII:
You just can’t trust the popular will can you. Time to change to a new laity.
 
Priest should not be celibate if they are married. The RCs now have about 200 in the US and the Eastern Catholics should have several more than they have, which is none.

Dan L
 
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GregoryPalamas:
Priest should not be celibate if they are married. The RCs now have about 200 in the US and the Eastern Catholics should have several more than they have, which is none.

Dan L
Really Dan? I can say for a fact that you are wrong.

The Eastern Catholics do have some. Now I will agree that we should have more but we do not have “none”.

I would have to say the greatest Divine Liturgy I attended was presided over by a guest priest. Our pastor concelebrated. The priest was visiting to Baptized, Chrismate, and give First Eucharist to his granddaughter.
 
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Symeon_Peter:
wow, ok. ByzCath, I apologize. Apparently my knowledge of the faith was not as thourough as I initially thought coming into this forum. I the eye am no important than the hand, even as we have different functions that does not make its plight vain
Forgiven, and I ask for your forgiveness as I think I was a bit harder on you and others here than I should have been but (in case you can’t tell) this is one of those things that really get me going.

Especially when I run into hard-heads (which there are a couple on this thread) who just ignore us or try to tell us how we got it wrong.
 
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InnocentIII:
The Church already can ordain married men, and does where a true calling has been discerned - so why all the push to ** change the discipline**

There is a real distinction between the Eastern approach to married clergy and the Protestant. Protestant clergy can get married post ordination, can become leaders of their church, can remarry, divorce etc. i.e they are no different to the laity in this regard. Eastern clergy can be ordained if married (an generally are) but may not marry after ordination or become bishops. i.e the discipline of celibacy is still honoured though not enforced on all.

No it is not. This is your interpretation. I have known many Eastern priests, both Catholic and Orthodox, and have tremendous respect for them. What I do do is question WHY there is a need to alter the discipline of the Latin Church. If there is no bar to a married man being ordained under the current discipline then there must be an agenda for those who insist the discipline must be changed. The onus must be on those who want change to justify that change as being an improvement on what already exists and has existed for 2 millenium.
I am not sure if we are communicating or not. There is most definitely a bar within the Roman rite to a married man being ordained as a priest. Currently, the only ones who are allowed to be ordained after marriage (and while married) are converts who were ministers in a Protestant church.

The bar has not existed for 2 millenium; it was, I believe, about the eighth century when the Roman rite made it a rule universal to the Roman rite.

I have no agenda, other than the agenda that a) I do not see a married clergy as weakening the charism of celibacy in those who are called to it as ordained priests; b)I have known too many priests who would have married prior to ordination had they been allowed to be ordained as a married individual; and c) I think that a married priest gives witness to the Ch;urch, different from buyt just as valid as, a celibate priest.

I have also heard too many Catholics act as if someone who is married is somehow a second class citizen, which is not what the charism of celibcy should be teaching them.There is too much a streak of Jansenism still running around.

I don’t see it as an improvement, nor do I see it as the opposite of the term “improvement”. the calling is given by the Holy Spirit; let the Holy Spirit blow where He wills.
 
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InnocentIII:
The edit time finished before I could add this. I am sure that all would agree that this forum is predominately “conservative” and the vote above (albeit small) indicates fairley accurately I think the conservative viewpoint which is strongly in favour of a celibate priesthood. I have found in my experience (which is probably just as broad as yours) that conservatives do favour a celibate priesthood. Unless you can show me a survey which supports your implied contention that many “non-liberals” (I assume you mean conservatives) support a married priesthood I will stand by my statement.
I think that this forum is predominately orthodox. Some people take that to mean that it is conservative; but those are generally of what I call the liberal persuasion, those who practice a cafeteria Catholicism, who seem to profess the “spirit” of Vatican 2, while bleating their ignorance of the documents of Vatican 2.

However, there are conservatives who are orthodox, but consider those who are orthodox but not conservative to be liberals. I don’t call that group liberals; I call them moderates; they accept the doctrines of the Church but may disagree about some of the disciplines.
 
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