Premarital Cohabitation Situations

[Truly_Beloved]

I posted this in the Family Forum earlier today, but I’d like to know what you lovely folks over here in Moral Theology say about this. Here’s the link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=158156

Okay, forgive the length of this post. I tried to make an appointment with my priest this morning, but his secretary left early for the day, and I can’t call back until Monday. So, I’d like some solid, faithful advice from those wiser than me. (I will still speak with Father next week, but DH suggested I post, too, since this is eating at me.)

Situation #1: Brother lives with girlfriend, they have 2 year old DD. They live in town. I have never visited their home, and did not help them move. They are welcome in my home (not overnight). The only people who are Catholic are myself, DH, and DD.

Situation #2: Sister lives with fiance. They live out of state. Before I found out they were cohabiting, I enthusiastically agreed to visit her this fall. I told her that now, I cannot stay at her home, eat meals there, assemble wedding favors there, etc., but I would still like to make the trip (I just can’t go see her house, and we could do everything at my hotel room). Rehearsal dinner is planned to take place at her residence, I am Matron of Honor. What a pickle. Again, the only Catholics are me, DH, and DD. When my sister announced the living situation, the family was mad at me for being “judgmental” despite knowing my stance (brother moved in with girlfriend before sister moved in with fiance). There should have been no surprises.

Situation #3: DH’s best friend informed us he will be moving in with Catholic girlfriend and proposing marriage soon. Girlfriend is civilly divorced from a Muslim man (less than 1 year). Told DH that we can only attend the wedding if they get married in the Church, since the woman is Catholic. Her mother has encouraged her to seek a declaration of nullity, but she has not done so yet (don’t know if she was married in the Church the first time or not). It is highly likely DH will be asked to be a groomsman. (More pickles… )

My take on all of these situations: Politely take a stand, don’t show approval, don’t visit in their homes, but make them welcome in mine. DH says I am being too harsh and restrictive, and that I am turning people off.

I don’t think I forgot anything…

What say you?

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Situation #1: Brother lives with girlfriend, they have 2 year old DD. Situation #2: Sister lives with fiance.
Situation #3: DH’s best friend informed us he will be moving in with Catholic girlfriend and proposing marriage soon.

My take on all of these situations: Politely take a stand, don’t show approval, don’t visit in their homes, but make them welcome in mine. DH says I am being too harsh and restrictive, and that I am turning people off.

What you’ve got to remember is that there is no ideal response to sin. That’s one of the ways we know it is sin.

In a Victorian type set-up the right thing might have been to show more understanding. In modern America there is a much stronger case for takign a stand, because if you do not make them aware that their behaviour is wrong no-one else will, until they learn the hard way. Then suddenly all those tolerant people will turn unsympathetic. They are not going to pick up the financial and human wreckage of a divorce, are they?

 

[eponymic]

I’m not sure why you cannot visit their homes. I would understand not staying in their homes (getting a hotel room instead), but not visiting at all? Is that just what you’ve decided to do, or is there a basis for that somewhere else?

 

[Truly_Beloved]

I’m not sure why you cannot visit their homes. I would understand not staying in their homes (getting a hotel room instead), but not visiting at all? Is that just what you’ve decided to do, or is there a basis for that somewhere else?

By visiting them in their homes, am I not showing approval? This is what I think might happen - That they will think it’s “not that bad” since I’ll still go visit them in their homes. (They are always welcome at my home, no questions asked.) I’m concerned that by going over, I’ll be encouraging them in their sin, in some small way, and therefore be sinning, myself (I don’t think anyone needs any more help in that department), and possibly causing confusion. I definitely will talk with my priest next week to get this all straightened out, though, and make sure I’m following Church teaching correctly.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

In a Victorian type set-up the right thing might have been to show more understanding. In modern America there is a much stronger case for takign a stand, because if you do not make them aware that their behaviour is wrong no-one else will, until they learn the hard way. Then suddenly all those tolerant people will turn unsympathetic. They are not going to pick up the financial and human wreckage of a divorce, are they?

Very excellent points, Malcolm. I do feel called to take a stand, especially since I’m the only one in my family who will.

 

[eponymic]

By visiting them in their homes, am I not showing approval? This is what I think might happen - That they will think it’s “not that bad” since I’ll still go visit them in their homes. (They are always welcome at my home, no questions asked.) I’m concerned that by going over, I’ll be encouraging them in their sin, in some small way, and therefore be sinning, myself (I don’t think anyone needs any more help in that department), and possibly causing confusion. I definitely will talk with my priest next week to get this all straightened out, though, and make sure I’m following Church teaching correctly.

Personally, I think that simply visiting is not a show of support. Especially in case #2, where it’s a long distance, rare event it’s not a sin to set foot in their home. If you make a big deal in that case to assemble the wedding favors in your hotel room only, I think that you’re crossing the line of “taking a stand” into “making a scene”. For the first case, where they live across town, it’s still not a sin to set foot in their home, however I could understand it being a show of support if you visited often. In these cases, I take it that none of the people you’re visiting are Catholic, and clearly have no problems with the living arrangements? (There are a few DDs involved in that first story, so forgive me if I misinterpreted) If that’s the case, I don’t think that your refusal to visit them in their homes will sway their decisions to continue that life style. It may only strain your relationship with them to the point where they stop inviting you, because they know you won’t attend.

That’s just my feelings, and obviously consider what the priest says over what I say.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

In these cases, I take it that none of the people you’re visiting are Catholic, and clearly have no problems with the living arrangements? (There are a few DDs involved in that first story, so forgive me if I misinterpreted) If that’s the case, I don’t think that your refusal to visit them in their homes will sway their decisions to continue that life style. It may only strain your relationship with them to the point where they stop inviting you, because they know you won’t attend.

That’s just my feelings, and obviously consider what the priest says over what I say.

Thank you for your take on it; most everyone else agrees with you, I think. To answer your questions: No, no one else is Catholic, just me, DH, and our DD. Because I’m “the religious one” in the family, I don’t want to give the wrong impression that something is moral if it isn’t (both my siblings have told me that they do look to me for guidance, if they don’t always follow my advice). Yes, they know that “technically” you shouldn’t cohabit prior to being married, just like they know that you shouldn’t have sex prior to marriage, either, since that’s what my parents taught us originally. I still speak with them on the phone, meet with them at our parents’ house, and have them over for parties and such at my house, so our relationship isn’t completely ruined. Just part of growing up, I guess, and finding our own ways… It’s painful, though.

 

[1ke]

Personally, I think that simply visiting is not a show of support. Especially in case #2, where it’s a long distance, rare event it’s not a sin to set foot in their home. If you make a big deal in that case to assemble the wedding favors in your hotel room only, I think that you’re crossing the line of “taking a stand” into “making a scene”. For the first case, where they live across town, it’s still not a sin to set foot in their home, however I could understand it being a show of support if you visited often. In these cases, I take it that none of the people you’re visiting are Catholic, and clearly have no problems with the living arrangements? (There are a few DDs involved in that first story, so forgive me if I misinterpreted) If that’s the case, I don’t think that your refusal to visit them in their homes will sway their decisions to continue that life style. It may only strain your relationship with them to the point where they stop inviting you, because they know you won’t attend.

That’s just my feelings, and obviously consider what the priest says over what I say.

I disagree.

I think the stand of not going to their house is a personal one, but it does make her stance consistent.

These people are “playing house”. They are inviting people as host and hostess. Accepting, going to a dinner hosted in their cohabiting home give acknolwedgement to their situation and legitimizes it.

By attending, it says there’s nothing wrong with a cohabiting couple playing host and hostess to married people as if they are the same as married people and that what they are doing is socially acceptable, morally acceptable, and has no social consequences. Truly is trying to stick to social consequences, that were once commonplace, to help these people see the error of their ways.

I totally get where Truly is coming from. It’s a shame others are too busy singing Kumbaya and trying to bend over backwards to not show disapproval of sin.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

These people are “playing house”. They are inviting people as host and hostess. Accepting, going to a dinner hosted in their cohabiting home give acknolwedgement to their situation and legitimizes it.

By attending, it says there’s nothing wrong with a cohabiting couple playing host and hostess to married people as if they are the same as married people and that what they are doing is socially acceptable, morally acceptable, and has no social consequences. Truly is trying to stick to social consequences, that were once commonplace, to help these people see the error of their ways.

I totally get where Truly is coming from. It’s a shame others are too busy singing Kumbaya and trying to bend over backwards to not show disapproval of sin.

This is EXACTLY how I feel. It’s so nice not to feel totally alone!

 

[Island_Oak]

By visiting them in their homes, am I not showing approval? This is what I think might happen - That they will think it’s “not that bad” since I’ll still go visit them in their homes…

Because I assume your friends and family charitably visit you in your home and refrain from harshly and publicly judging you–a sinner–equally as culpable for your failings as those whose sins you have enumerated, I’d encourage you to visit their homes and welcome them into yours with graciousness and hospitality (save for conjugal overnight stays) and not treat them as lepers. Or maybe just treat them as Jesus treated the lepers He encountered…

 

[Truly_Beloved]

Thank you, Island Oak, for your advice. You are correct in that my family does not help me identify my sins, and I certainly hope they don’t feel like lepers. Many other posters agree with your opinion.

 

[blessedtoo]

Because I assume your friends and family charitably visit you in your home and refrain from harshly and publicly judging you–a sinner–equally as culpable for your failings as those whose sins you have enumerated, I’d encourage you to visit their homes and welcome them into yours with graciousness and hospitality (save for conjugal overnight stays) and not treat them as lepers. Or maybe just treat them as Jesus treated the lepers He encountered…

Indeed! Following your logic, I wouldn’t be visiting anyone, and not a soul would be visiting me! There’d be lots of lonely folk out here!

 

[MilesXpisti]

Because I assume your friends and family charitably visit you in your home and refrain from harshly and publicly judging you–a sinner–equally as culpable for your failings as those whose sins you have enumerated, I’d encourage you to visit their homes and welcome them into yours with graciousness and hospitality (save for conjugal overnight stays) and not treat them as lepers. Or maybe just treat them as Jesus treated the lepers He encountered…

Ah, but it’s not an issue of not going because they’re sinners, but because they’re obstinate in their sin. The OP acknowledges their sinfulness, as should be apparent for all. The people they describe deny that they are even doing something wrong. This is where the disparity comes in.

 

[blessedtoo]

Ah, but it’s not an issue of not going because they’re sinners, but because they’re obstinate in their sin. The OP acknowledges their sinfulness, as should be apparent for all. The people they describe deny that they are even doing something wrong. This is where the disparity comes in.

Actually, the couple in question are not Catholic so it’s not really a issue of denial. It’s probably more a matter of ignorance. And as far as obstinancy is concerned, they are getting married, thus correcting the immoral living situation. Wouldn’t this be the best time to show support?

 

[Truly_Beloved]

Actually, the couple in question are not Catholic so it’s not really a issue of denial. It’s probably more a matter of ignorance. And as far as obstinancy is concerned, they are getting married, thus correcting the immoral living situation. Wouldn’t this be the best time to show support?

To clarify … Of the 3 couples mentioned, 1 involves a Catholic woman; the other 2 couples do in fact know that living together outside of marriage is wrong, but think that in their particular circumstances, it’s justified. Couple #1 is not getting married at all any time soon, and Couple #2 moved in together well after the engagement (so they aren’t really “fixing” anything, kwim?). Couple #3 (involving the Catholic lady) has plans to move in together very soon.

Did I just royally confuse everyone now? :whacky:

 

[blessedtoo]

To clarify … Of the 3 couples mentioned, 1 involves a Catholic woman; the other 2 couples do in fact know that living together outside of marriage is wrong, but think that in their particular circumstances, it’s justified. Couple #1 is not getting married at all any time soon, and Couple #2 moved in together well after the engagement (so they aren’t really “fixing” anything, kwim?). Couple #3 (involving the Catholic lady) has plans to move in together very soon.

Did I just royally confuse everyone now? :whacky:

Yup! You lost me! Maybe it’s the extreme heat this evening or the hot flashes, but I thought it was the non-Catholic couple who were hosting the wedding favor gathering that was the main issue. Maybe I should wait until morning when the temperature goes down!

 

[MilesXpisti]

Actually, the couple in question are not Catholic so it’s not really a issue of denial. It’s probably more a matter of ignorance. And as far as obstinancy is concerned, they are getting married, thus correcting the immoral living situation. Wouldn’t this be the best time to show support?

No, now is the perfect time to make that stand. Society tells them that what they’re doing is okay. The family is telling that it’s okay. The OP seems to be the only one willing to be the strong one here. Maybe by the OP’s refusal to accept the situation, they may begin to realize that something isn’t quite right.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

Yup! You lost me! Maybe it’s the extreme heat this evening or the hot flashes, but I thought it was the non-Catholic couple who were hosting the wedding favor gathering that was the main issue. Maybe I should wait until morning when the temperature goes down!

The non-Catholic couple is hosting a wedding favor gathering, as well as a rehearsal dinner at their home. I have been advised, so far, by everyone to attend the dinner; most posters have also encouraged me to attend the wedding favor gathering. I’m thinking I should have made these 3 different posts! Sorry for the confusion, blessed.

No, now is the perfect time to make that stand. Society tells them that what they’re doing is okay. The family is telling that it’s okay. The OP seems to be the only one willing to be the strong one here. Maybe by the OP’s refusal to accept the situation, they may begin to realize that something isn’t quite right.

Thank you, Miles, this is what I was thinking… That if I don’t take a stand, no one else will, and that will not do anyone any justice. I just didn’t know how much of a stand to take, you know? And my DH was worried that I was standing too much.

 

[MilesXpisti]

Thank you, Miles, this is what I was thinking… That if I don’t take a stand, no one else will, and that will not do anyone any justice. I just didn’t know how much of a stand to take, you know? And my DH was worried that I was standing too much.

I understand, believe me. As the only Catholic in a family of Baptists, I’ve run afoul of the more permissive elements of my family on a whole slew of issues, not the least of which was contraception. But I’m glad I did, because one of my cousins now follows the Church’s stance on contraception and NFP and is seriously considering conversion. In this time of gross individualism and subjective morality, sometimes being a boatrocker is the only way to plant the seed of truth in the minds of others. You and your family are in my prayers.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

But I’m glad I did, because one of my cousins now follows the Church’s stance on contraception and NFP and is seriously considering conversion. In this time of gross individualism and subjective morality, sometimes being a boatrocker is the only way to plant the seed of truth in the minds of others. You and your family are in my prayers.

This gives me so much hope, thank you. :hug1: Your prayers will be powerful, I’m certain. God bless you!