Premarital Sex

[Bradski]

Whoa, back the truck up a little, guys.

Based on what you have said, I have a few opinions, schoolteacher. However, you ain’t going to get them because I have no expertise in relationship counselling. And a couple of paragraphs on an internet forum is not a basis for giving advice in any case.

You shouldn’t be talking to strangers on a forum. You should be talking to your guy. Which I guess is me giving advice in any case. So while I’m breaking my own rules…

Cook a nice dinner at home. A couple of drinks before hand. Phone off the hook. Put on some music you both like. Make sure the wine is a reasonable quality and light a couple of candles. Then talk to each other.

 

[Sky_River]

If you aren’t married, it’s a sin. Doesn’t matter if you don’t get pregnant, or if he’s the only man you’re with. Sex is a sacred act, and the only way to properly honor the bond it creates between a man and a woman is to establish commitment through marriage.

Don’t doubt your worthiness; in the end, we’re all bad Catholics. There was only ever one good Catholic, and she got assumed into Heaven.

Why exactly is it a sin? this issue confuses me more than anything else because it’s the only sin that can be a non-sin in a different set of circumstances. How does sharing property and money make a sin into something sacred?

 

[pensmama87]

Why exactly is it a sin? this issue confuses me more than anything else because it’s the only sin that can be a non-sin in a different set of circumstances. How does sharing property and money make a sin into something sacred?

That’s not the only thing that marriage is.

It becomes appropriate after the solemn vow is exchanged to commit to each other for life. For Catholics, that vow has to take place in the context of a Catholic wedding ceremony. Without that commitment, either person could just walk away at any time.

I also think you’re looking at it backwards, but I’ll admit that first thing in the morning it would be hard for me to explain why.

 

[Sky_River]

That’s not the only thing that marriage is.

It becomes appropriate after the solemn vow is exchanged to commit to each other for life. For Catholics, that vow has to take place in the context of a Catholic wedding ceremony. Without that commitment, either person could just walk away at any time.

I also think you’re looking at it backwards, but I’ll admit that first thing in the morning it would be hard for me to explain why.

What else changes after people are married?

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

I struggle with CAF members lack of compassion and pray that my feelings and attitude about what I perceive as a lack of compassion can one day be expressed appropriately. For now, such will weigh on my heart and mind.

To the OP, much of what you wrote resonnates with me. I am in the process of getting an annulment. Personally, I do not want to repeat mistakes made that lead to my first marriage. I have tried to work hard on my own short comings and clean up my side of the street, (believe me I have done a lot of heavy lifting and need to do much more). I am trying to do my best to lead the life God intended me to live. I hope to one day find that person whom I am to love as Christ loves the Church.

Peace, g.

 

[goout]

… a couple of paragraphs on an internet forum is not a basis for giving advice in any case.

This right here is true.
Although it is good to get some ideas on the internet it’s also good to remember that none of us know the poster.

 

[Midwest88]

It’s simple: the act of sex, of any form, outside of marriage is a sin.

 

[Sky_River]

It’s simple: the act of sex, of any form, outside of marriage is a sin.

Is this the only sin like that (meaning it isn’t a sin in a certain circumstance)?

 

[Aaron_I]

Why exactly is it a sin? this issue confuses me more than anything else because it’s the only sin that can be a non-sin in a different set of circumstances. How does sharing property and money make a sin into something sacred?

In the OP, schoolteacher mentioned a priest saying that extra-marital sex was okay because they were “committed” to each other. The point is, they are NOT committed to each other precisely because they are not married.

The Church in the catechism defines marriage as a “covenant by which a man and a woman establish between themselves **a partnership of the whole of life **and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring”

Legal marriage is a sharing of property and goods. Catholic, sacramental marriage is a **sharing of the whole life. **The two become one flesh. Sex should only be shared between people that are truly committed to each other in this fullest sense. Anything else is lying with your bodies.

The OP and her fiance have been together for 3 years now, engaging in relations likely for the majority of this time. And yet, they remain unmarried. The fiance is still not forthcoming regarding his spending habits. It sounds like he’s still keeping things from her. If nothing else, the Church is trying to protect people like the OP from being strung along in this 3-years-long psuedo-marriage. The OP deserves a spouse that will share in her life. No secrets, just self-sacrificing service and love.

Credit must be given to the OP, though. She has gone through proper Church channels such as seeking annulment. She sought Church counsel regarding prenuptial agreement. It seems she even sought Church counsel regarding premarital sex, although she was given awful advice. Now she is here seeking further Church counsel. Regardless of her poor education regarding Church teaching on this issue, she is clearly and consistently seeking to learn what and why the Church teaches, which is to be commended.

 

[Sky_River]

In the OP, schoolteacher mentioned a priest saying that extra-marital sex was okay because they were “committed” to each other. The point is, they are NOT committed to each other precisely because they are not married.

The Church in the catechism defines marriage as a “covenant by which a man and a woman establish between themselves **a partnership of the whole of life **and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring”

Legal marriage is a sharing of property and goods. Catholic, sacramental marriage is a **sharing of the whole life. **The two become one flesh. Sex should only be shared between people that are truly committed to each other in this fullest sense. Anything else is lying with your bodies.

The OP and her fiance have been together for 3 years now, engaging in relations likely for the majority of this time. And yet, they remain unmarried. The fiance is still not forthcoming regarding his spending habits. It sounds like he’s still keeping things from her. If nothing else, the Church is trying to protect people like the OP from being strung along in this 3-years-long psuedo-marriage. The OP deserves a spouse that will share in her life. No secrets, just self-sacrificing service and love.

Credit must be given to the OP, though. She has gone through proper Church channels such as seeking annulment. She sought Church counsel regarding prenuptial agreement. It seems she even sought Church counsel regarding premarital sex, although she was given awful advice. Now she is here seeking further Church counsel. Regardless of her poor education regarding Church teaching on this issue, she is clearly and consistently seeking to learn what and why the Church teaches, which is to be commended.

What about people who are married in a civil marriage?

 

[Aaron_I]

Sex is hardly the only action that is okay in some circumstances but not okay in others.

I can spend my money but not other people’s money. Pretty similar concept to I can sleep with my spouse but not somebody else’s spouse.

It’s okay to kill an enemy in combat in a just war. It’s not okay to murder.

 

[Sky_River]

Sex is hardly the only action that is okay in some circumstances but not okay in others.

I can spend my money but not other people’s money. Pretty similar concept to I can sleep with my spouse but not somebody else’s spouse.

It’s okay to kill an enemy in combat in a just war. It’s not okay to murder.

Is it fornication if there is a civil union?

 

[Aaron_I]

Is it fornication if there is a civil union?

Depends how you mean. Is civil union referring to same-sex partners (inherently immoral) or something like a common law marriage where you’ve just been living together for a certain period of time?

Assuming the latter, I believe it would be immoral for a Catholic in the absence of getting married in the Church. Catholic ought to know of Church teaching regarding marriage. Living in sin and coasting in that state until the law recognizes a common law marriage is not the same as getting married in the Church. Doesn’t cost much to get married in the Church. Don’t need a big ceremony, just meeting with the priest a few times so he can educate and make sure people know what they’re getting into.

For a non-believer, where getting sacramentally married is not an option, then getting married legally is the fullest type of marriage. It is certainly valid for such persons to have relations. Marriage just by natural law implies a sharing of the whole life, and we give people (even non-believers) benefit of the doubt that they are intending such a union.

 

[Sarcelle]

Depends how you mean. Is civil union referring to same-sex partners (inherently immoral) or something like a common law marriage where you’ve just been living together for a certain period of time?

Assuming the latter, I believe it would be immoral for a Catholic in the absence of getting married in the Church. Catholic ought to know of Church teaching regarding marriage. Living in sin and coasting in that state until the law recognizes a common law marriage is not the same as getting married in the Church. Doesn’t cost much to get married in the Church. Don’t need a big ceremony, just meeting with the priest a few times so he can educate and make sure people know what they’re getting into.

For a non-believer, where getting sacramentally married is not an option, then getting married legally is the fullest type of marriage. It is certainly valid for such persons to have relations. Marriage just by natural law implies a sharing of the whole life, and we give people (even non-believers) benefit of the doubt that they are intending such a union.

Civil marriage means getting married by a Justice of the Peace. This is different than common law marriage.

I know several heterosexual couples who are atheists and this is how they got married. There is a brief ceremony involved.

 

[Sky_River]

Depends how you mean. Is civil union referring to same-sex partners (inherently immoral) or something like a common law marriage where you’ve just been living together for a certain period of time?

Assuming the latter, I believe it would be immoral for a Catholic in the absence of getting married in the Church. Catholic ought to know of Church teaching regarding marriage. Living in sin and coasting in that state until the law recognizes a common law marriage is not the same as getting married in the Church. Doesn’t cost much to get married in the Church. Don’t need a big ceremony, just meeting with the priest a few times so he can educate and make sure people know what they’re getting into.

For a non-believer, where getting sacramentally married is not an option, then getting married legally is the fullest type of marriage. It is certainly valid for such persons to have relations. Marriage just by natural law implies a sharing of the whole life, and we give people (even non-believers) benefit of the doubt that they are intending such a union.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_union

 

[pensmama87]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_union

So, it’s a term that could mean a lot of things, including legal marriage.

Two people of the same sex can’t get married, full stop, regardless of the kind of ceremony or paperwork they file to do it. They may go through the motions, but they are not married. (The same applies to so-called “women priests” - they may go through the same ordination ceremony, but they will not be ordained. They are playacting.)

Baptized Catholics are required to be married according to the Church’s law on marriage. Non-Catholics are not. A legal marriage ceremony would suffice. But it would have to be one man, one woman, who enter freely and willingly with the understanding that such is a lifetime commitment. That is binding on everyone Catholic or not.

Of course, if you’re not Catholic, you may not particularly care about any of that.

 

[HelenRose]

A bit of background…I am 48, divorced, annulled…fiancé is 49, divorced, annulled…we’ve been together for 3 years and attend weekly mass at his parish…he volunteers as an RCIA sponsor and I do the Children’s liturgy…we have a lot in common but one thing stopping me from marrying him is his financial situation…I make lots and have lots saved for rainy days and retirement…he doesn’t…in fact, he has lots of debt which his parents have bailed him out for twice now and most recently I saw his credit card balance online (he asked me to log in to his banking app while he was driving) and it’s more than half way to 5 digits again…we’ve talked about this before and he’s agreed to a prenup (I’ve already checked with our diocese and it’s ok to get one), but for some reason, it’s still holding me back…

Most recently we went on a motorcycle trip to PA and I unfortunately crashed my bike…it’s a write off, but I am alive although badly bruised and sore…thankfully nothing broken…three days later my mom passed away, so in the midst of dealing with excruciating pain, I had to deal with a funeral…this was late August/16…

This past weekend he apologized for the accident…he feels it’s his fault for going too fast and thus making me try to keep up (of course I should’ve slowed down and I told him I don’t blame him for it because it’s as much my fault)…he apologized before and I told him the same thing…however, he’s now decided that he was being selfish, putting his needs/wants before mine and before God’s…he’s translated this to our intimate life, saying whenever we come together, he’s putting his sexual needs before mine and before God’s…he believes (and I understand where he’s getting it from the Scriptures) that we need to be chaste in our relationship unless we are married…

So he’s given me three choices…1) marry him, 2) continue to be “engaged” but not have sexual relations until we decide to marry or 3) break up and remain friends…

The accident did kind of put things in a whole new perspective and in some ways, it’s reaffirmed that money isn’t everything…however, I just don’t understand where/what he’s buying to wrack up $7,000 debt in six months…he’s paying child support for four more months, but he’s making 2.5 times what he was making a year ago…he’s extremely kind hearted, generous, loving, etc. likes the same music, other interests but this whole money thing keeps bothering me and it has been for quite some time…we had a wedding date planned for the end of May 2016, but I cancelled it when I found out about a large of amount of debt that hadn’t been disclosed prior and his parents bailed him out again for the second time back in Feb/16…

Looking for advice…is it really that bad as Catholics to have sex outside of marriage in our situation…we can’t have kids (he was snipped 10 years ago) and we’re not promiscuous with other partners…I guess I am a cafeteria Catholic and he deserves someone closer to God than me…

P.S…a previous priest at our parish had absolved us of any sin stating that since we were committed to one another, sex was ok…our current priest says no way…and I think this has something to do with my fiancé’s thought process…

You have asked for advice so I am giving you some serious advice. He is using you. Run as fast away from the situation as you can. The laws of God are mean for our good. There are very good reasons why sex outside of marriage is always harmful and in most cases most harmful for the woman who is buying (often literally) a well constructed lie. If he loves you he will become solvent and stop reeling you into his debt.

The priest who said this was okay also lied to you.

 

[vz71]

And Pilate said “what is truth.”

 

[Sky_River]

In the OP, schoolteacher mentioned a priest saying that extra-marital sex was okay because they were “committed” to each other. The point is, they are NOT committed to each other precisely because they are not married.

The Church in the catechism defines marriage as a “covenant by which a man and a woman establish between themselves **a partnership of the whole of life **and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring”

Legal marriage is a sharing of property and goods. Catholic, sacramental marriage is a **sharing of the whole life. **The two become one flesh. Sex should only be shared between people that are truly committed to each other in this fullest sense. Anything else is lying with your bodies.

The OP and her fiance have been together for 3 years now, engaging in relations likely for the majority of this time. And yet, they remain unmarried. The fiance is still not forthcoming regarding his spending habits. It sounds like he’s still keeping things from her. If nothing else, the Church is trying to protect people like the OP from being strung along in this 3-years-long psuedo-marriage. The OP deserves a spouse that will share in her life. No secrets, just self-sacrificing service and love.

Credit must be given to the OP, though. She has gone through proper Church channels such as seeking annulment. She sought Church counsel regarding prenuptial agreement. It seems she even sought Church counsel regarding premarital sex, although she was given awful advice. Now she is here seeking further Church counsel. Regardless of her poor education regarding Church teaching on this issue, she is clearly and consistently seeking to learn what and why the Church teaches, which is to be commended.

Did Adam and Eve have that?

 

[goout]

Did Adam and Eve have that?

Yes. Adam and Eve had a sharing of the whole life. Until they choose otherwise.