Presbyterian Church (USA)

[twf]

In some ways the Catholic Churches come off rather worse. If you compare the number of men ordained every year in the CofE to those by the Roman Catholic dioceses in the country, the difference is astounding.

The more traditional dioceses in North America are thriving vocations wise. Those dioceses that have adopted a more watered down approach to liturgy and tradition less so in my experience. In many cases Catholic dioceses with dismal vocation statistics have, in my opinion, somewhat followed the example of the liberal mainline Protestant denominations.

 

[Selah_KY]

Hold on! Didn’t Jesus say that “If thou dost not liketh God’s will, bring the matter to the next spaghetti supper and put it to a vote, for the people of God decideth truth and the truth is ever changing.” I think it was in his Letter to the Pastafarians, 2:69.

 

[commenter]

The PC - USA has approved same sex “marriage” thus reducing another mainline Protestant communion to ignominious nothingness. This has been coming on for years. I had contact with one of their clergy who left PC - USA for something called Evangelical Presbyterian Church. I asked him why he had remained there so long in view of their position on abortion. He said he had hoped to change them. Yeah, that’s a good idea.

“We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong.” - G.K. Chesterton

The question is why didn’t PC - USA do this decades ago? I believe Presbyterianism was guided more or less by Scripture, as interpreted through the classic documents of Presbyterianism. In addition, I believe they took for granted most of the earlier Catholic Tradition, as well as the Natural Law. In recent decades they have been gradually throwing overboard pieces of that earlier template, so they can pretty much bend Scripture and Presbyterian documents to fit whatever they want. For instance their adherence to the Natural Law started weakening when they accepted contraception. For them to accept same sex “marriage” now is further progress down that road.

Where will rejection of the Natural Law lead them next? It may help to read over some of the founding documents for the USA, where you can see the hand of the Natural Law - that there are basic, permanent Truths; that humans have certain rights “endowed” by their Creator (not earned, not granted by the society). That the rights are “inalienable”, and so on. All of that is there because the Natural Law was widely accepted by most people then, including Presbyterians. All those human rights become shaky when the Natural Law is no longer defended.

Presbyterians don’t have a Magisterium, that can objectively judge that following the media is a bad idea - that permanent Truths must be defended; that not everything is absolutely good/bad, or true/false - but some things are.

 

[Zachary]

To your first question, it doesn’t. Now, if you’re going to ask me that, then ask the previous poster if their statement on the CoE has anything to do with the PC of USA?

However, I do object to the idea that it is churches trying to “keep up with times” that causes lower attendance. Keeping up with the times is to automatically recognize a problem and that problem is, people in the western world are becoming disenfranchised with the faith as a whole; not just some protestant churches, the problem is not discriminatory.

My argument, is its a cultural problem and these Churches are giving in to a culture, so as to bring its members back.

I’m not really sure the attendance issues within the CC are debatable either. The facts show this across the whole of Europe. With that said, might I add, that I am not siding with liberal Church leaders, nor I am trying to condemn the CC. I do not want to be misunderstood, because that can happen sometimes. I firmly respect the CC and commend it for all its wonderful acts of mercy in the world, throughout time. I just don’t think this is a “Protestant Problem.” Hope I have been clear.

No, I get it. However bringing in the Catholic Church attendance has nothing to do with what the Presbyterian Church may be doing. I do agree that there is a secular issue that doesn’t back attendance throughout churches however responding that this also has to do with the Catholic Church is stepping outside the discussion of whether the Presbyterian Church is an example of secularization of a denomination leading to its own downfall. When the Catholic Church is secularized it become something other than the Catholic Church (it becomes Protestant imho). When a Protestant church is secularized it is still a Protestant church and tends to fail.

Anyway I don’t think the Presbyterian church has authority to make this vote to change the definition of marriage. Is there any scripture that would demonstrate God wanting us to vote on his laws?

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Rodney Stark, author & sociologist in How the West Won makes a pretty convincing case that Europe never was never thoroughly converted to Christianity of any orthodox sort, be it Catholic, or later on, Protestant. What happened was a veneer of belief among the widespread populace, mingled with various folk beliefs, including diluted remnants of paganism (but nothing like a proto-Wicca). Except for a few areas, the Churches of whatever confession, were almost always mostly empty unless someone drove the populace in by force–and this disinterest was due to the very existence of state Churches, a disinterest which continues to the present.

In contrast, the “free-market” (no state religion) USA meant priests and preachers had to [Uhustle for parishioners/members hence our greater religiostity from AFTER the Revolution onwards

 

[JRRTFAN]

I’m not sure that is a very good analysis, considering the Catholic Churches in Europe are also empty.

Probably due to the leadership (sic) of the European hierarchy as witnessed by his Eminence Walter Cardinal Kasper.

 

[JRRTFAN]

Hold on! Didn’t Jesus say that “If thou dost not liketh God’s will, bring the matter to the next spaghetti supper and put it to a vote, for the people of God decideth truth and the truth is ever changing.” I think it was in his Letter to the Pastafarians, 2:69.

I must object. Your scholarship needs a redo. It’s the Gospel according to Larry, not Pastafarians.

 

[Memaw]

Would you like to expand on what is behind the smoke then? I am merely commenting that it is a cultural issue, not a church issue. It’s no mystery that attendance in every christian church is decreasing rapidly across the western world, which suggests it’s not about Catholic v Protestant.

Not so sure I believe that, In the 70’s when I started going to daily Mass, many times I was the only one there besides Father and maybe an older couple when the weather was nice. Today our Church has at least 50 to 75 people at every daily Mass. Older couples, young people, single men, single women and yes even young families. More during lent and Advent. Come join us. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Aslan10]

Not so sure I believe that, In the 70’s when I started going to daily Mass, many times I was the only one there besides Father and maybe an older couple when the weather was nice. Today our Church has at least 50 to 75 people at every daily Mass. Older couples, young people, single men, single women and yes even young families. More during lent and Advent. Come join us. God Bless, Memaw

I was mainly speaking of Europe.

 

[Stilldreamn]

Rodney Stark, author & sociologist in How the West Won makes a pretty convincing case that Europe never was never thoroughly converted to Christianity of any orthodox sort, be it Catholic, or later on, Protestant. What happened was a veneer of belief among the widespread populace, mingled with various folk beliefs, including diluted remnants of paganism (but nothing like a proto-Wicca). Except for a few areas, the Churches of whatever confession, were almost always mostly empty unless someone drove the populace in by force–and this disinterest was due to the very existence of state Churches, a disinterest which continues to the present.

In contrast, the “free-market” (no state religion) USA meant priests and preachers had to [Uhustle for parishioners/members hence our greater religiostity from AFTER the Revolution onwards

Interesting! Luther lamented the lack of regular attendance at the newly reformed churches along with the lack of support for the pastors. The peasantry followed whatever religion their Prince accepted, and converted when he did - the earliest State churches, I suppose.

Unfortunately, the threat of hellfire is one of the more effective methods that man controls in order to get people to receive the medicine of the Gospel.

 

[Zachary]

I must object. Your scholarship needs a redo. It’s the Gospel according to Larry, not Pastafarians.

No. It’s in my book, so it’s a fact now.

I think YOU need to learn how to drive!

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by Origen52 View Post …I point to the Anglican church in England. They have approved everything, including openly gay priests, women priests and now women bishops, but their churches are still empty.

One of the sad things about traveling through England is seeing the number of churches which are now cafes, private homes, etc.

I’m not sure that is a very good analysis, considering the Catholic Churches in Europe are also empty.

Point is theological liberalism empties churches.