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hiramross
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I would like to know some insight and thoughts on the Presbyterian vote to accept gay marriages? Any Presbyterian care to weight in or share some insight…???
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ltwin
Guest
To be clear, it was the Presbyterian Church (USA) (abbreviated PC(USA)) that voted to accept gay marriages. The PC(USA) is the largest American Presbyterian church, but there are others. Other Presbyterian denominations such as the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Evangelical Presbyterian Church for example continue to uphold traditional Christian teaching.
I’m not a Presbyterian, but I’ve researched Presbyterian history. A lot of our liberal Protestant friends (not just Presbyterians) reinterpret biblical passages that forbid or condemn homosexual acts to not mean what they clearly mean. Often, they say that this is only talking about non-consensual homosexual activity or that Paul was condemning male prostitution or that Paul was simply regurgitating the social standards of his own time and that this was not meant to be a universal, binding moral precept.
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hiramross
Guest
its hard to think any Christian church allows such thing. That is not a mean or cynical thought or theory it’s rather the law of God; natural law.
The growing trend for gays and gay culture is alarming. This is why the question I have is raised.
I ground the discussion on this quote:
“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
― G.K. Chesterton
The growing trend for gays and gay culture is alarming. This is why the question I have is raised.
I ground the discussion on this quote:
“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
― G.K. Chesterton
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GKC
Guest
“Novels on the Great War”, ILLUSTRATED LONDON NEWS, April, 19, 1930. In G.K. CHESTERTON: COLLECTED WORKS,Vol. XXXV, p. 293.
GKC
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commenter
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The Natural Law is the foundation for much of our understanding of morality and social life in Christendom, and to some extent in Judaism and Islam. It is embedded in the founding documents of the USA - including the fact that certain rights and principles in the social order are older than the whole concept of government and don’t come from government; that government must respect the Natural Law.
In 1900 the Natural Law was accepted, taken for granted, by almost all Christian churches as well as by many non Christians, and non believers in the US. Decade by decade, that was eroded (contraception, divorce, eugenics, stem cell etc). Gay marriage is an attack on 2 parts of the Natural Law, marriage and homosexuality. Each time one part of the Natural Law is surrendered, it makes it easier to give up another part. People who like their birth control pills and artificial insemination don’t understand that all these things are connected. That the Declaration of Independence with its statement of equality, and “permanent” human rights inherent in a person’s humanity may soon be considered no longer inalienable. The government gives, the government can take away. That is what comes with the loss of the Natural Law.
In 1900 the Natural Law was accepted, taken for granted, by almost all Christian churches as well as by many non Christians, and non believers in the US. Decade by decade, that was eroded (contraception, divorce, eugenics, stem cell etc). Gay marriage is an attack on 2 parts of the Natural Law, marriage and homosexuality. Each time one part of the Natural Law is surrendered, it makes it easier to give up another part. People who like their birth control pills and artificial insemination don’t understand that all these things are connected. That the Declaration of Independence with its statement of equality, and “permanent” human rights inherent in a person’s humanity may soon be considered no longer inalienable. The government gives, the government can take away. That is what comes with the loss of the Natural Law.
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hiramross
Guest
I think you should of been in the room with the Presbyterians that voted to allow gay marriage.
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SteveVH
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SalusaSecondus
Guest
All the Presbyterians I know are members of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church or the OPC. They are all vehemently against gay marriage and their church accepting gay marriage.
When the PCUSA jettisoned the Westminster Confession they opened the door to all sorts of weird doctrine and false teaching.
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hiramross
Guest
you’re right about them being open to more false teachings and leading people astray from Christ. Sad…
When groups like this fall under the world’s pressure and go further away from Christ; does this have you rethink your position?
What are you’re thoughts on that and what are you’re thoughts of the Catholic church?
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jimcav
Guest
Where are they you ask?
Well, it seems that 34,000 black churches have left this Presbyterian PC USA since they took this vote. There is a thread on the subject here -
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=954503
Well, it seems that 34,000 black churches have left this Presbyterian PC USA since they took this vote. There is a thread on the subject here -
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=954503
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hiramross
Guest
Great thanks!!
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SalusaSecondus
Guest
Not at all. In fact it makes me resolutely more Confessionally Lutheran. We have seen what happens first hand when Lutherans throw out their confessions, or at least hold to the quatenus interpretation. The Presbys just followed suit.
I have no desire to rejoin the RC church at this time.
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OurLadysServant
Guest
Jesus.came to save sinners.
Rc church has had an unbroken line of Popes from St Peter. The apostles were alive during the.early.church and would have.guided this. The Holy Spirit spoke to them and sent them visions.
Jesus said.He would be present trully in the Eucharist;
“I am the.Bread of Life. My flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.”
A lot of the crowds found this hard to stomach and left!
Guess what chapter, verse and line from John this was?
6:6:6
Rc church has had an unbroken line of Popes from St Peter. The apostles were alive during the.early.church and would have.guided this. The Holy Spirit spoke to them and sent them visions.
Jesus said.He would be present trully in the Eucharist;
“I am the.Bread of Life. My flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.”
A lot of the crowds found this hard to stomach and left!
Guess what chapter, verse and line from John this was?
6:6:6
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Mystophilus
Guest
Sorry, but you are conflating Aquinas’ decidedly-Catholic-and-spiritual view of Natural Law with Natural Law itself, which is a much broader and far more secular concept.
Natural Law itself is the view that human morality can be valued and determined by observing the operations of nature, i.e. of the world around us, with no (name removed by moderator)ut from divine revelation. The human social construct ‘marriage’ is only a Natural Law idea in so much as it reduces conflict in the society by making certain types of relationship exclusive: citizens A and B do not fight over citizen C, because the construct ‘marriage’ grants A but not B the right to interact with C. This system operates regardless of the sex of the citizens, because the Catholic view of marriage as being all about procreation is not simply a Natural Law one: it depends upon Christian Scripture and Tradition. Under Natural Law, there is no problem having an exclusive relationship with no children, or one between two people who happen to be of the same sex.
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Mystophilus
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hiramross
Guest
You mean John chapter 6 verse 66
“From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him”
To be clear on the Popes there is no new revelation by the Popes for that ended with the apostles (Catholics bros and sisters please stop me if i’m mistaken)
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hiramross
Guest
Wow I’m sorry Mystophilus but you are very far from the truth.
To summarize NATURAL LAW I give this explanation:
God create us human beings and inside all of us are complete natural systems that work in unison. All of these systems are complete functioning systems (otherwise we can not live):
Cardiovascular system
Respiratory system
Nervous system
And others… But only one system is incomplete in itself…the reproductive system.
Natural law is that for this system to be complete it must have the other compatible component Man and Woman then the reproductive system is complete and the function is able to FULLY delivery the natural purpose that God created.
So when religious say that homosexuality is wrong it is because it goes against Natural Law.
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Mystophilus
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No, that’s not Natural Law: that’s a statement of faith, depending upon divine revelation.
Natural Law, as explained in the link which I provided and again here, is a philosophical system which uses the operations of the natural world as the justification of human moral and legal codes. As such, Natural Law is something upon which atheists, agnostics, and religious people can agree.
No. When particular religions say that homosexuality is wrong, that is because it goes against their conception of Divine Law, hence the fact that it is the religion which says it.
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hiramross
Guest
Are you a Christian (honestly asking…besides your title in a profile)?
Natural Law is the observation of (science folks can weigh in there) and the statement of faith regarding God creating us is part for the insight in which supports the purpose of all things made, sea, moon, trees, tides, currents, OUR internal sytems, etc…
If God said for men not to lay with men in your mind what does that mean?
You say that men laying with men or women with women is not against God’s teaching??
Would you call it perverse for people to freely have sex because it feels good? or do you justify it by thinking “its an act of making love”?
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hiramross
Guest
catholic.com/quickquestions/whats-the-difference-between-the-natural-law-and-the-laws-of-nature
I think we are on two different paths of thought.
I’m saying that natural law is consistant with the laws of nature in that as written God has created things for our good and all things in this world has a purpose people, plants, animals etc. but also all the PARTS that make up people as a whole, plants as a whole etc…
it is for that reason we are called to do as God directs our lives to be in union with His purpose.
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